Q: Good to hear, otherwise people back off from the 'Blackheart Man' or whatever they called them. You know what I mean, all that unknown, unfamiliar, scary thing.

A: Something scary for some reason, and some of them would come off with a kind of harsh tone, because it's a different atmosphere, the vibe is different an' t'ing like that. The people ain't used to it, they draw assumption right away an' don't want their kids to be around those people. But like I say, for some reason everybody loved Ram. I don't think Ram come off that kinda way, and that was my exposure to Rastafari, y'know. Now when I moved to Kingston you have a whole another attitude, like whe you call it - anger! You know, anger - an arrogant kind of vibe to go with it which I didn't see in the country, so a new t'ing for me too. And up 'til this day there's still that attitude, that attitude even magnify. Well, you see, what 'appen is that after a while, is that a lotta youthman learn that you can lean on Rastafari or in other words you grow your hair an' look a certain way and people fear for you. You know? And they don't mind that at all, it's actually a part of what they want. But in the same breath they're using it as a spiritual step, using it that way as...

Q: A shield, to hide behind or cover it up.

A: Yeah, hide behind it, y'know. Some a dem are the scariest - it's like some a dem are scared, y'know, afraid. But like you say, they're hiding behind it, that shield, and then you find that it's a misreputation that goes on. But such is life (laughs).

Q: What popular acts did you take in during these times?

A: Motown, all of that. And I loved The Skatalites. I remember when on a school-trip to Kingston and the Skatalites was playing, they played at the Stadium in Kingston. And, y'know (laughs), when I started I said to myself 'That's what I'm gonna be doing, that right there! THAT is what I'm gonna be doing!'(laughs). Yeah. But the Motown stuff, man, and coming up there's this one woman weh... Mahalia Jackson.

Q: Gospel.

A: Yeah, she had a big impact on me. I did just love how she got into it. She put her own self in what she was doing - I could feel her! She is a big influence.

Q: Suppose you didn't have a record player in the household?

A: We didn't have that, we lived way in the woods, man. I didn't even have a radio, only hear the woods, man! You know, I used to use the sun and the moon and the stars for time, the woods, y'know wha' I mean. If I wanna reach school certain time I know when the shadow of the hills rest a certain way, an' t'ing like that. Seh 'OK, alright, seven o'clock, I need to beat it now'. If I wanna get to school by eight o'clock I need to leave now, and coming home too when I'm playing with my friends an' t'ing, if I don't get home on certain time I have to ask if OK for my dad. You know, I had certain time too when I check certain - an' that whole road is like three mile to school, and its like all the way coming home I can tell you roughly within minutes apart, which way, or what time it is. And maybe five minutes off, whether later or earlier. Not much more than that off! This is from the shadows from this, and to that. And from nighttime it's the same thing too, y'know. You have the (inaudible), you have a star you call the Morning Star when it rises a certain time of the year, you know what time it is. Yes, several different planets up there that we used for time. Way out there, man, some of my friends have a little radio an' t'ing like that. I used to hang out mostly with older guys than myself, and they could afford a lickle radio. I couldn't afford that (chuckles).

Q: Yeah, those were the days.

A: Yeah I tell you, man. And there were rough days, but looking back at it those were actually the sweetest days of my life, and I didn't know it! I tell you, man, it was fun, it was fun. But then you know, the distraction, you have a friend move to Kingston, come back a few months later lookin' all flake, y'know, Kingston vibe, y'know wha' I mean, having all the girls, living big, you feel like you wanna move to Kingston. It's tempting, you know. But then when you get there, man, it's like I got there and after a year I start to, like, 'Bwoy, I dunno, country really nice yunno'. And then within a couple of years after that 'Bwoy, country REALLY nice yunno!' - y'know what I mean (laughs)! More time you spend away from it is like it's becoming this sweet patterned memory that you never wanna get rid of.

Q: So back to The Brothers, you split and then what happened for you?

A: Yeah, I split up from them and then mainly it's because I was in my little backyard there bangin' on my guitar and actually Errol Grandison from The Gladiators passed by an' him jus' asked "How yu doing", say "Hi", y'know, and asked if he can come in. And me say "Oh yeah man, you can come in", and he tell me who him is. And so me and him humming something together, nothing special, just something. Him tell me now that Gladiators is lacking a member an' that I would be perfect for the slot, and I say "Oh, yeah man, I would be up to do it". So him say "OK, I'm gonna tell Albert". And I think a few days later him and Albert came by, and I started with the Gladiators then.

Q: Do you remember the first encounter you had with Albert?

A: My first impression is that actually (chuckles) I think he were a little bit arrogant, and deep in the back of my 'ead, my psyche tell me that he is not easy to get along with, but he mus' be a nice person from he knew music. But anyway, the first encounter really was one evening - this is the first time when he (Errol) brought him, when Albert came by. No, the firs' encounter with Albert wasn't that time! That time I was still in The Brothers, we end up in a little patta bush. I can't remember who, I think it was Vin who invite the Gladiators to come rehearsin', or somet'ing like that. We end up in a little patta bush and they sing a song. Then we start singin' a song, after they sing a song, so we say "OK, let them hear something that we have". And we start up a song - and Albert get up and left! And took the other two guys with him, jus' left, without saying that he's leaving or anyt'ing like that. I figure that this was a little bit bizarre. After that Errol Grandison came by and said they've lost a member.

Q: That was Webber, he got mentally ill I believe.

A: I think it was mental problems, yeah. I dunno what happened to him, it's a long time I've seen him walking about the place. But at the time we jus' reasoning with him, and the reasoning would be good! They never quite know how to fill it in, what really went (down), but it seems like there was something happening 'upstairs' there.

Q: What became of Grandison?

A: Errol I think... I dunno what happened to him neither. You know, I haven't seen any of those guys in a long time.

Q: Why did Errol leave the Gladiators?

A: Um, I think that happened in terms of income, and he decide he can't go on, can't handle it any longer. So after it was only Albert and me for a good while, and then Gallimore Sutherland came in.

Q: How did you find Gallimore?

A: A kind of easy-going personality, I actually like Gallimore, personalitywise. Responsibilitywise, he always act to me like annoying, y'know what I mean, but nice personality, I like 'Galli'. Galli will piss you off and in the same breath he'd say 'oh, you set yourself up, man'. And when I see Galli, man, we're gonna fight, and then when you walk round to fight Galli, then he would jus' step back when you're gonna fight him. You know, because of his attitude, laughing as if he did nothing (chuckles).

Q: Before you joined the Gladiators, they had already recorded for WIRL, West Indies, like 'The Train Is Coming Back'. What was some of the first recordings you cut as member of the Gladiators?

A: I can remember I did 'So Fine', 'Hello Carol', and I'm not quite sure there what else it was.

Q: You heard them on record or on the airwaves previous to this?

A: 'Hello Carol' and 'Train Is Coming Back', those two played on the radio. 'Hello Carol' was like number one for some seven weeks, or something like that, on the radio. And 'Train Is Coming Back' played for a little while there too.

Q: Like what songs were written in this period, was there a lot written that got recorded later, between the late sixties and early seventies?

A: You mean what I recorded with them from the start? The first two songs I did with them was 'Freedom Train' and 'Rock A Man Soul'.

Q: Those two was done for Lloyd the Matador, what was the link-up there?

A: That was for Matador. Well, y'know, we were like doing auditions and kinda got something going. At the time I think Albert didn't wanna stay with Coxson because Coxson make money from 'Hello Carol' and didn't wanna pay, otherwise - I don't know what the story was, but... You know, the treatment wasn't too excellent from Coxson, so all him (Albert) want was to look elsewhere. So we went down by Waltham Park Road there and he had a record shop there, he had a record shop and tv shop where he work on tv's, repair tv's an' t'ings like that. Did an audition there, then we do it (at) Dynamic.

Q: It was only two songs recorded for Matador, they sold well?

A: At that time, yeah, actually they sell pretty well. Them weren't a number one or anything like that but they sell pretty well, and he was thinking about doing an album after that, but we didn't get around to it. Then after that now I think we went back to Coxson, to do some stuff out there. But it was a good stretch of time between there, when we didn't do anything for Coxson, and then we went back. We do 'Curly Locks', we do - no, not 'Curly Locks'...

Q: 'Beautiful Locks'.

A: 'Beautiful Locks'! And 'Trench Town Mix-Up'. It was quite a few we did there, we did several things in-between our own stuff. There was a time there too I think when Albert played guitar, Bagga Walker (bass) played there, Pablove Black (keyboards), Albert was there playing guitar for a while. After that we put a band together and played some stuff down there too as well.

Q: Was Albert the man who gave you the suggestion to switch from rhythm guitar to playing bass?

A: That's what I started off with, I started off playing guitar. Not studiowise, just at home with guitar an' t'ing like that. How I get into the bass actually is while we were rehearsing, before we have a band or anyt'ing like that, just a singin' group. And we were rehearsing and while rehearsing in bars an' t'ing like that, I would be playin' like a drum-beat on my leg and hummin' a bassline, and youth thought that I would be a excellent bass player. Before we would get a band together, I would be the bassman.

Q: How did you feel about that at first, the bass is what reggae's about on a whole, that is what keeps the ship going.

A: Oh, I didn't actually feel what, y'know, was actually excited, I loved it all, y'know what I mean. Loved it all so I was excited about that, and so I learned how difficult it is to actually sing and play (laughs)! Oh, that was difficult, to sing an' play, but I loved it and I loved my experience with it. And of course Albert is in the business before me so he have more experience with that, both with guitar and with bass. You know, more than I do, and I learned quite a few things from Albert too as well, precious lickle bass things I learned from him in rehearsal time.

Q: Tell me more how that particular fiery Gladiators sound evolved?

A: I think when I came into the Gladiators, I came with my own vibe, y'know, and I think that have a lot of influence how the Gladiators sounded after 'Hello Carol' and 'So Fine', 'Train Is Coming Back' an' t'ings like that. When I start recordin' with the Gladiators, we push a whole other tone to it. You know, I was the one who actually start a 'question-and-answer', an answering kind of choir or harmony. You know (sings) 'I man don't like to get mix-up, mix-up (high-pitched) mix-uuuup...', y'know what I mean? I was the one who actually started that with the Gladiators, and then that becomes a kind of harmony spell for us.

Q: A Gladiators trademark.

A: Yeah, a sort of trademark there. But you know, all of us grow still and help to build that and that's it. I'm not taking more credit, or I don't want more credit than I deserve!

Q: Sure, I know what you mean. But how come that the group evolved from a harmony group to a band so fast, you didn't want to depend on pick-up musicians to provide the feel, that was becoming a little 'restricted' to what you wanted to achieve there, soundwise?

A: Well, we thought that it would be - Albert thought that I would play good bass since I hum nice basslines, and he played the guitar so he would take care of guitar and so forth. There was this guy that we know named Winston Cardey, played drums. We know this guy Clinton Rufus, a guitarist, so we figure that we put something together. But before even Clinton Rufus, Winston Cardey, Albert Griffiths and myself, and there was a couple others who died later that used to hang around, and they would play sometimes. But for the most part it's the three of us first, and then because we think that it would be better to have a self-contained band, or group. But it was a hard one! I remember we went to Coxson and actually we did some songs for Coxson, and there was some instruments that he had put away there in the studio that he wouldn't be using. So with those, that's what we used for a start, instrumentwise.

Q: Considering Albert's bad experience at Studio One in the sixties, you still chose to go back to Coxson after the Matador recordings.

A: Well, all of that, like I said I didn't experience what they did experience, I wasn't in the group yet at that time. You know, it's because it's one of those things where you're searchin' for where it's at, y'know what I mean? Sometimes this bwoy - it's no better if you leave your work here and go on searchin' and no better you go right back to where you were, because you can't find any better, so you go back, and so I guess that's what happened. So, at this point there's another houseband out there, there's other guys like Dennis Brown first time who actually start with Coxson and move away from Coxson and never really do anything for Coxson again after him move out of there. So it's the same thing - Bob Marley, Bob Marley's them did the same thing, for we weren't to that point yet. We weren't to that point yet (chuckles)! We're trying but it didn't work, so we go back together and start there.

Q: Can you recall what you did as a backing band at Studio One, any particular acts and records?

A: Well, for the Ethiopians, the Silvertones, quite a few there. My first recording there playing bass was when we did something for Delroy Wilson. The first recording we did there was for this guy - can't remember his right name, we did a song named 'Selassie Bandsman' (by The Manchesters), and we jus' called him Selassie Bandsman for some reason (laughs)! And that name kinda circle since I don't remember his right name (laughs)! But that was my first recording, basswise, playing bass. So it's quite a few there, I just can't remember them off the top of my head - Stranger Cole! We did something for Stranger Cole down there too.

Q: And Burning Spear?

A: Burning Spear? No, I didn't do anything for Burning Spear at that time, I think Albert probably did play on something for him there, but I don't remember.