Q: For how long was the Gladiators second stint at Studio One, if you recall? Between say '71 up to late '74, thereabouts?

A: Um, it's kind of... you bounce back and forth like, y'know. That time deh we spend there like maybe say a year on a regular basis playing stuff for Studio One, and time in-between, y'know what I mean. That we spend most of the time doing songs, auditions for ourselves too - I mean other artists, for Studio One. Then right in or after that period of time, Vivian Jackson - Yabby You - having a session over by Nighthawk... no, not Nighthawk - Black Ark, yeah, and Scratch (Lee Perry) heard us playing, say "Oh man, wha 'appen, can do a session?" That's where I start playin' bass with Scratch, and I end up play bass for Scratch for a while 'til other things come. I'm there almost every day and do all kinda riddim with Scratch.

Q: Tell me a little about the inspiration for some of the classic songs you cut while the Gladiators resided at Studio One, all your own compositions such as 'Jah Almighty' - that one is fantastic, 'Downtown Rebel' - just as great, and 'On the Other Side', a long time personal favourite. What about 'Downtown Rebel' for instance?

A: It's just looking at the situation, new kids, y'know, an' t'ings like that, how they become rebels, how they actually - I wanna say 'rebels without a good cause', it's just basically caused by delinquency, nobody to really take care of them or show them the way but they are new kids, and it kind of hurt, y'know what I mean. Those songs are basically... then I look at the government how that is all dealing with a general waste of talented kids and how they is spending money on this and spending money on that, but they're not seeing things, them not having a youth programme to deal with these talented kids, and t'ings like that, to see how corrupt our government are. And even until this day I'm still writing like that: 'When are we gonna see humanitarian help instead of politician seeking blood money', an' t'ings like that. Because that's what has been going on from way back when and it don't quit today, and of course those were tough times too. So, y'know, you're hungry and don't have no money and you wanna wear a new pair of shoes, you can't buy a pair of shoes! Before you go out and steal from shop to get it, or rob somebody - in a positive way, y'know.

Q: 'On the Other Side'?

A: 'On the Other Side'? There's kinda that - 'on the other side' kinda mean something as spiritually, it don't literally mean 'on the other side' - 'over there', y'know (chuckles)? It mean 'on the other side of your life'. Again, it means stay on the positive rather than the negative, it tappin' on your spiritual side, y'know. That's what that really means. Sometimes I wish I was, like, better with words, y'know what I mean.

Q: I don't know about that, it's fine to what I hear. This association between Yabby You and the Gladiators, how did that come about? One of you in the band and Yabby lived in the same neighborhood at the time?

A: Kinda in the same neighbourhood, and we know Yabby You long time when him just started an' t'ing like that. We used to actually rehearse Yabby You, y'know, even myself personally used to rehearse Yabby You with acoustic guitar an' t'ing like that, until him start producing. So we know Yabby You long time, him check for us when him ready to produce, him check for us an' so we do dub for him, and he always get a good riddim.

Q: You personally did sessions for him, like for example this 'Tony Tuff ' album on Island, the one that came out in 1980.

A: Yeah, yeah, do Tony Tuff and Patrick Andy, and the deejay whe used the name - Trinity! About three other youths we do other stuff with.

Q: You ended up doing (with the Gladiators) a tour with Yabby in the US, that was the mid eighties I think, and his first tour in the States.

A: Yeah, we did something that actually brought the man off of that.

Q: And how did that happen, his record company at the time (Shanachie)?

A: I think it was his record company at the time, checked Albert, and funny thing about it there wasn't any more money to have him on the tour, so basically what we supposed to get pay... split, y'know, that many ways, to be able to pay him too as well! That whole thing monetarily was bad, and some part of the vibe was alright but then instead, a friction start along the line between us, the same thing happen with the Ethiopians too. And that's two groups that I admired. But for some reason there were frictions between them. Albert think that we were playing those guys songs better than we were playing his! It wasn't that at all, but those guys were easier to work with. His attitude, I think that's what do it. But, it's not like we were playing their things better than his, which were more lighter playing their stuff. So therefore that comes across.

Q: Back to the Black Ark, the link to Yabby made you stay there? Scratch wanted you to do more work at his place, or you just enjoyed the interaction and the vibes there, that's basically why you stayed?

A: Yeah, he wants us to do more, we did, and then we went back and we did a session.

Q: You did 'Time' which came out on the Upsetter label.

A: 'Time', yeah.

Q: And 'Untrue Girl'?

A: 'Untrue Girl', you got it.

Q: Suppose you've seen the nice misspelling of it on the Upsetter 7": 'On True Gal'?

A: Yeah, I know (laughs)!

Q: But there wasn't more than two or three tracks for Scratch then, bearing the Gladiators name?

A: Um, no.

Q: But solo you did 'Message To The Nation' for Perry.

A: Right, and that - I'm trying to remember if that was my own recording, or that was for Scratch?

Q: It was for Perry, came out on Upsetter.

A: I know I did one over there, or two, for myself. I recorded for myself, and I have Sky High (Hartnel Henry's label).

Q: You did the 'Togetherness' 45 for him, circa '75 or the year after.

A: Yeahhh! That's right, that's right.

Q: How did that end up on Sky High's imprint, he produced the song? I believe this was cut at the Ark.

A: Actually I didn't record with Sky High, I record the song and...

Q: And you gave it to him for release then?

A: Yeah, he actually wanted to get in the business. So, I said "OK, alright". Hey, y'know, I actually come up with the label 'Sky High'! I came up with the label Sky High and went over, check him and said "Hey, I have this idea", and it's the Sky High label. So 'I'll make the record, you sell it'. You know, then later on he open this little shop, and have that song of course, and then the Sky High label, and then everybody just call him 'Sky High' after that (laughs)!

Q: Can you remember who played on the session for that track - drums, guitar, and so on? You played bass I assume.

A: Me, I played bass, but for the guy deh name from Third World - the lead singer?

Q: Bunny Rugs?

A: Bunny Rugs! Bunny Rugs play rhythm guitar, and I played the little lead guitar lick, the lead guitar lick on there.

Q: And who took care of the drums?

A: I cyaan remember who played drums, I wanna think that it's Tony - Benbow (Creary). I wanna think that it's Benbow playing the drums. I think that's Benbow, or 'Fish' Clarke.

Q: What about another track, another 45 titled 'Stand Firm' on the Dat Ma Wal label, came out as 'Tony Fearon'. I've also seen 'Clinton & Tony Fearon' listed somewhere regarding this tune, so I thought 'OK, a duet, so who's Tony ?' (chuckles).

A: Oh...? Yeah (laughs)! Is me trying to disguise (chuckles). It's me trying to disguise, oh man.

Q: But you can't place that track, when and where it was done?

A: It's kinda vague, it is kind of vague how that all went. I can't even remember how that went. Did a few more there that I can't even remember how that developed.

Q: At the same time you did collaborations at the Ark with Watty (Burnett, the Congos), like 'Rise and Shine', that was credited to 'Watty & Tony'. Was there any other tracks you cut with Watty there?

A: With Watty, right, right! I think we did some other thing, like probably harmonize some things for Scratch and for some other people that come in. Me and Watty did some things, but can't remember them right now though.

Q: How was working at Black Ark in general, compared to, say, Studio One?

A: Yeah, y'know, I learn a lot! Learned a lot playing over there because Scratch had some great ideas. And he did love me as... and I was quick! I was grasping his ideas an' t'ing like that, him did love me for that. And I would often time come up with some unique bass ideas myself, too. It was kinda like totally different from the regular basslines that's out on the street, he did kinda love that, true. He and I get on perfectly well. 'Cos Scratch is the kind of guy, y'know, hit him in his face, OK, if it's Q'd, hey - let him out to stay there so. Is when you're gonna be buddies to him then, oh, this is not gonna be his t'ing, act like bad in his face. Well, not like in his face but... you know? But allow him to be himself, then him get huffy to you and highly face an' t'ing like that, and sometime run musician out of the studio. Several times the vibe isn't good for the studio, them time you go home. But he and I used to get on pretty good.

Q: As far as Scratch and Albert, they didn't get on very well I heard.

A: Yeah, that's true, they didn't click, so...We did that one session with the Gladiators, and we didn't do another one. I think Scratch went to Albert and Scratch say to Albert, "Albert, man, you sell me the same rhythm that you sell Coxson and that you sell Yabby You, I want something different". And of course Albert didn't like that, and then Scratch went down to Albert to tease Albert a little more, that he kinda hung his guitar up in Dodd's studio an' t'ings like that, just teasin' him, and Albert couldn't handle that at all. You know, for some reason they just didn't click.

Q: As far as the atmosphere and the social interaction at the Ark compared to the other contemporary studios at the time, how do you remember that? You didn't watch the clock and get things done in a rush, you could work out new ideas without feeling restricted by the usual demand for effectivity. In other words, you had a different routine there.

A: Different routine, different vibe. You know, him have the more saying, again it's like how the sound is different, him have his own t'ing. (Laughs) I remember a time when we would be playing, everybody inside there working and Scratch would come an' spray something in the four corners of the studio (laughs)! It's like, 'Hey Scratch, get the demons out of there', y'know! But it's all good, I learn a lot from Scratch where percussions is concerned, how you layer that and all that, y'know. I learned a lot from him. And Coxson, I learned a lot from Coxson in a whole other way. In other words, I appreciate both a them. Coxson now, Coxson is different from Scratch. Coxson will allow you to do whatever you want to do and then later on if he likes it he'll put it out, if he doesn't he don't put it out. Scratch now is like, he will get involved. You know, he will hear something and he wanna get involved, tell the operator to do different sounds, and if you don't want him to be involved and it's his session, then who knows, the session might be scrapped. You have to kinda know your temperament and how both of them work, to work with them, otherwise it's conflict, y'know what I mean.

Q: Right. But how was the approach to production different between them, and what was the similarities? I mean, Scratch was 'educated' at Coxson's stable, so he most likely took some impressions with him and put it into his own stuff. Coxson was hardly ever present there when you had your sessions, was he?

A: Every now and then he would come through, if he hear a song he'd like, he would come and say 'yeah, I like this one, this one really sound good'. Or, he might have a line that he would suggest, y'know, one or two lines there, and so and so, every now and then. But for the most part he'll allow you to do your own thing. Later on decide if he like it or not.

Q: So after Scratch now, this is when you link with Prince Tony of High School International and T/R Groovemaster fame. Were the group still at Studio One at this point?

A: Actually how that went is that we were still at Studio One, and we weren't getting anywhere, and Albert and myself we decide seh, well, then bwoy we were gonna split off. I would help him with his stuff, and he would help me with my stuff. We were gonna go our separate ways, because we were just not happening as a group. So, we did 'Know Yourself Mankind' and that was initially Albert, he took it to Prince Tony.

Q: Did he - Albert - know Prince Tony personally from earlier?

A: We know of him, but not 'know him-know him'. But through we went round by his shop and check him, gave him the song, and he say that he's gonna take it to England, so he took it to England and check Virgin Records, and then he come back with a contract and said they wanted an album.

Q: Strange circumstances somehow, a (major) contract at a time when the band more or less had split. Did you know anything about Virgin, or any of their involvement with reggae?

A: At that time we know seh, well, then Virgin did signing quite a lot of artists on the label.

Q: Like U Roy, Keith Hudson, Peter Tosh, those were the first in that batch.

A: Yeah, so I did know (about) them. Then Prince Tony brought a contrac' legit from Virgin, took us to his lawyer, an' t'ing like that, to sign the contract. I remember I had three problems signing the contract. You know, it was his lawyer, I hadn't real understanding of the contract, what it says. I suggested that we took it to a lawyer who let us understand the contract. Albert was upset with that, y'know, he have kids and can't bother with lawyer at this time. I didn't want to be a 'record broker', a heartbreaker for this, so I signed it too with empty hands. Later on we learned that it wasn't even in Prince Tony's favour, the contrac' wasn't even in Prince Tony's favour. So everybody got screwed, basically. And at one time we were in France there and we were touring and what Prince Tony wanted to was to go make up noise on Virgin, like confront them and stuff an' t'ing like that and blah blah, they plan to go over there an' behave certain way and I'm saying to Albert, 'Albert, now that the contract is over' - and he is intending to go over talk to them guys let them know that well, the fame and excitement and t'ing like that up 'til now, and didn't know that he signed a bad contract, but now that's so, it's done. Then he negotiate and do a kinda good deal. Then he didn't wanna do that, he just bother Prince Tony go down there, kick down them table, cuss up a lot of bad word an' all of that. But it didn't make matters any better, because all them got is that era, hear them out as if them breath without nothing. So it didn't work in their favour at all. They were a little bit upset with me beca' I didn't go with them because I figure, well, if that's the way them gonna do it then I don't wanna be involved.