Q: Did the group ever meet up with the staff at the Frontline office, or this was Tony's table, like dealing with Jumbo (van Renen, the South Africa-born running the label for Virgin at the time)?

A: Yeah Jumbo (laughs)! We meet Jumbo in England a few times, we meet Chris too - wha' him name again, can't remember. The guy who owned it?

Q: Chris? You mean Virgin's founder, Richard Branson?

A: Richard Branson! Him came out to Jamaica there at one time, and we met him. We chat for a little while. So, that's Jumbo. There was this guy who was a punk... with The Police?

Q: No, Johnny Rotten - or John Lydon, he was down there scouting talents for the Frontline label at the time, I guess he was partly responsible for the Gladiators signing.

A: Yea, something like that. Actually Prince Tony know that they were coming down there and he invited us to go up there with them, by Sheraton Hotel, that's how we get to meet them. But what I heard later on is that them guys had been checkin' for us for a good little while an' nobody would tell us! That Virgin been checkin' for us, because that was their attitude, it's the competition thing, y'know what I mean? There was a set of guys there that was definitely into competing and it's like somebody would be asking for you and then 'oh man, I dunno, man, I don't think them in the business anymore'. But, 'by the way, listen to this', y'know what I mean? It was quite a bit of that that used to go on, Chancery Lane there downtown. And at the time we weren't the hang-around type, to just hang out at the studio if you're not doing anything. And them guys were big at that, that was their hangout, y'know, at Randy's. So, most people like foreigners come down seeking acts, something like that, for sure they will pass down through Randy's, or any of those spots.

Q: 'Idlers Corner'.

A: Yeah, you know. And then you have Channel One turned up, and then Aquarius up by Half Way Tree turned up too. But you had those three spots where you could look for musicians or artists, an' t'ing like that. But, I wasn't gonna hang out at the studio if I'm not working, so therefore we didn't meet a lot of contacts at the time.

Q: But Tony took care of the connection with Virgin at the time, the group wasn't directly in contact with them so you could get a handle on what went on there?

A: We didn't have like direct contact with them. At one time we did something there with Eddy Grant.

Q: We're coming to that. But, all in all, how did you find the time at Frontline, doing these - at least today they are - highly regarded albums, looking back on it now?

A: Actually I must say that it did do good for the group, I think for the exposure. You know, I didn't get any money, but we get the exposure.

Q: Right, I was about to ask about payment there, how that was, if the band could reap any sort of benefit or reward out of it?

A: No, I haven't got any reward either! It's like what I say, a lickle exposure for the group, and a lickle exposure for myself, but a lotta exposure for the group and it enabled us to tour, an' t'ing like that. It made a little money that way, and then later on when people were lookin' for old groups, then I think Albert make a good bag of his (money) there. Because he still own the name, so he get people on tour an' start collect his money. When we used to do it back then we never used to collect any money either. No, because it was like touring to promote. There's this tie to promote, we never used to make good money.

Q: Of those four albums the group made for Frontline in the late seventies, is there anyone in particular there that you are especially fond of?

A: I really like 'Proverbial Reggae', I like 'Proverbial Reggae' a lot. 'Trench Town Mix-Up' is a very good one too.

Q: Talking about that first album, the classic 'Chatty Chatty Mouth' was originally concieved or titled as 'Big Toe Joe', according to what you said in an interview in Jamaica in 1977, what's the story again?

A: That is true (laughs)! You know, again I was speaking about the government, really. You know, how the government is like a comic, 'Big toe Joe, want to know him culture'.

Q: There was some mix-up between your song and the Mello Lads trio, they had a 7" out on High Note (on Dutchess actually, a Treasure Isle subsidiary) at the time as well, that's a totally different 'Chatty Chatty Mouth' though.

A: Oh, and it's their 'Chatty Chatty Mouth'? I don't know anything about it, I'd love to get a copy of it.

Q: So four years you stayed on a contract to Virgin. What did Prince Tony add overall, productionwise, to the Gladiators' sound, if he even did that, what would you say? What was his contribution, did he make any difference?

A: Yes he did, in my opinion he did. I think there were just a certain little touch, especially on the mixing front that him would coach the engineer.

Q: Who mixed most of those albums on Virgin, it was Errol T?

A: Um, Errol Thompson from Joe Gibbs mix a lot of those songs, and also I think Sylvan Morris. I think he recorded us at Harry J's studio at one time there too. But actually Errol them work together pretty well. Prince Tony him have a touch, the kind of song that would go over well, him had a good ear for that. I think he did add to it.

Q: It was left to the group to take care of how the sound would be, or did Frontline involve themselves in how the albums 'should' be?

A: No, except for the one that was done in England.

Q: Strange record. That one must be ranked as a pretty mediocre Gladiators album, it was cut after Frontline went down. How come you ended up with Eddy Grant as producer (for the self-titled 1980 album)?

A: This is - that was the company's idea, I think they didn't want to spend money to Jamaica to deal with it. They want to deal with it up there, but they end up spending more money because I think they were trying to get a crossover thing, soundwise. I myself, I didn't think it helped the group in any way. I also think those songs, we practiced those songs and know those songs, turned up playing them, and they add Eddy Grant's musicians to play them. In my opinion it was a mistake. But I didn't have much say, y'know wha' I mean?

Q: I see. Who were the people responsible at Virgin for this release, Jumbo had left Virgin after Frontline went down?

A: I think Jumbo had left at that time - actually no, Jumbo was still there! I can't remember how involved he was though, but Jumbo was still there because Jumbo would come pick us up and drive to the company sometimes, and take us back to the hotel and so on. But he wasn't the one conducting the business, and I think at the time he was saying that he is planning on moving back to South Africa, something like that.

Q: What happened there to Frontline? Some sources suggested that Virgin lost all interest in reggae since Marley died, and that much steam left the whole movement at the time - which is probably true, financially speaking. I think they ceased producing reggae before Marley's passing though. Then they basically dumped the whole roster of artists they had, it was just too 'sweet', wasn't it? Typical record company bull.

A: Well, honestly I don't - some people might say that, for some reason they themselves say otherwise, I tend to think otherwise. I tend to think that them come to Jamaica, them sign up a lot of artists like I say, there's a lot of people on the Frontline in Jamaica at that time too, a lot of people on Frontline weren't necessarily big sellers or...

Q: Or just not popular or happening in Jamaica.

A: Yeah, or even good for that matter. And them come down and sign up almost all the artists, and out of the forty they might have ten that sell, and out of that ten you probably have four that sell really good. Now, by time and of course them coming down not knowing all of that key people, some people who is not getting more money than some people, them crumb all the money on to the same category - reggae. And so 'how much did reggae make this year?' Well, reggae on a whole didn't make as much as they would love to make. But if a single artist or a particular artist make that much, make good money, well, that artist sometime don't think that them don't see that money, and basically I'm talking now this is about us. When 'Proverbial Reggae' just release, I heard some good story that it sell over 200 000 in a certain part of Africa deh.

Q: Yes, it was the same with U Roy's albums for Virgin, selling like 100 000 copies in places like Nigeria alone.

A: Yeah, you know. With those things happening and it's like 'where's the money?', y'know. 'How come we are not getting anything?!' 'What's happening?!' And when we ask questions like those I remember I never get any answer. I'm not the upfront person to say well, then 'OK bwoy, let me find out if them hide this for us and...', y'know. In other words, it wasn't easy! It wasn't easy back then being in the Gladiators.

Q: This must've caused a lot of frustration within the group, how was the relationship between you and the other members at that point?

A: Everybody get frustrated! Including Albert. Everyone get frustrated, because we do all this work and we know that make money, man, but we're not making any money. The thing is, if we could talk about it and talk about the mistakes that we made, and try to find a way to remedy the situation, we could actually face the situation. You know, look our demons in the eye and deal with it! But, we couldn't even talk about it either. That make it even more frustrating, beca' we couldn't reason about it, and it jus' escalate and escalate and jus'... mash up. I think everybody did get kinda frustrated and like I say not making any more money than Tony's business. So, I think that Albert think that him do something direct, he would be better off than having Tony as the middle man. You know, this is just how I think, because I don't know why we do some of the things we did, it just happened (laughs)! The contract was over, and so it didn't get renewed. That's why I said earlier on that we talked about the first deal and let them know that 'hey, the first contract was bad'. Because Virgin at that point did still love the Gladiators, I think musically we were still one of their steady groups. I think because of personality reasons they didn't want to deal with the Gladiators.

Q: Now, there are naturally other circumstances that made it turn out the way it did, but otherwise Jumbo was pretty supportive of the Gladiators' career during this time, perhaps even more than any other act on the Frontline roster.

A: He was alright, really alright. You know, like I say he was kinda the 'buff', so therefore he can afford to kinda flex in-between. The people who make the decisions, he never got to spend a lot of time with them. Jumbo is always showing us around, he is the groundwork guy, which we spend more time with Jumbo. And he is likeable, he was alright as far as I'm concerned.

Q: What about the 'music school' the Gladiators had in the mid seventies, coaching and rehearsing other groups in the ghetto, like The Royals, Earl George and... what was behind that?

A: I dunno if you could call it a 'music school', maybe that's what it was, but school I think. But we used to rehearse in the backyard, like a lickle training center. We used to rehearse in this guy's backyard, we call him Bill - I can't remember his right name. We used to rehearse behind his lickle shop there, a shed there, and t'ing like that. Albert make up a lickle sign and put up on the fence.

Q: This was at Olympic Way in Trench Town.

A: On the Olympic Way. We make a lickle sign and put up on the fence that say, well, then y'know, it's a music school. But it wasn't really a school, we have friends weh come in deh an' we show them what we could and in return give us some money. We go cook, it wasn't no big thing. But it was helpful to the community still. People who wanna learn to play a guitar, we could guide them to learn some of what they need, t'ings like that. Wasn't really a 'school', like I say, I dunno if the term is right or wrong, something like that though! Yeah, like a lickle training center. But it was actually mostly for us to practice. First and foremost it's actually for us to practice, beca' we were learning then too. At the time I was learning to play the bass, Albert was learning to play the guitar better too - we all were learning, y'know what I mean. But we invite others to come along and learn too, like The Royals used to come there the same, and other singers come there too. And if they kept sound alright then we take them to Coxson and record their songs, let Coxson know that 'hey, we have a artist deh', weh we have a couple of guys songs and t'ings like those.

Q: What I've read is that the Gladiators were behind the arrangement for mid seventies hits like 'Dread Out Deh' by Joy White, for example, and this stems from the days at the music school, or training center as you prefer.

A: Yeah, we used to actually practice them girls - that song, and the one who wrote the song is not even she the one who sing it, I forgot the name of the one who wrote it. But both of them were friends. And the one who sing it, her name is Joy White, she used to go to church an' t'ing like that, and her friend couldn't sing the song when (we) went to record it. So they got Joy White to sing it. And she got her start from there. But yeah, Joy White used to come check me up at my yard sometimes, hours at night we siddung out at the back deh, play guitar and practice. Yeah, but we actually put that song together, the arrangement. But that particular song, actually I think it's mostly Albert arrange that song.

Q: Next you met up with a small but highly regarded US label, Nighthawk Records out of St. Louis. How did that come about, was the project for the 'Calling Rastafari' album the first thing you produced together, or the first album you did for them, the 'Symbol' LP? You met in Kingston?

A: I think so. Them guys, I think they came to Jamaica, jus' gotten in the business, them have some money whe we spend an' so forth, I think Blacka Morwell and the whole a dem spend up a lot of the money. I think by the time they finally reach to it, they 'ave been blown on money (laughs)! But them got us and we did a recording with them, I think I can remember it was Channel One. We did recording with them, they said it was a compilation. Then later on we did an album, with just the Gladiators.

Q: 'Symbol of Reality'. Then the 'Serious Thing' album some years after - which I rate more than its predecessor, and tours, but you felt nothing much happened for the group at that time?

A: 'Symbol of Reality', right. Yeah, that's about it, nothing comes from those either.