Q: I guess the thing about the early days of the music was the total joy of the music itself that was made, the recognition you got, but not many realised the reality of, say, all the pressure that comes from doing all the hard work with recording and performing regularly, and not even getting the right rewards or benefits from it. I suppose it all caught up with you when coming to the States when you got that breakdown?

A: I guess that's what it is, yes. And then, the other day somebody (laughs) did over 'Stay A Little Bit Longer', and BB let me know say, well, something is happening with this song, and he's gonna take care of it but I gotta give him the fee if I want this to be done, y'know. OK, and I say well, bwoy, Mrs Pottinger she's trying to get the whole thing on her behalf (laughs)! It's nothing much but she wanted to get...

Q: The royalties.

A: Yeah! For herself, and I'm saying in this situation she doesn't have a heart (laughs)! She want to get it all.

Q: Still she didn't contribute one word or one note to that song.

A: No. Nothing, she didn't do nothing. And she wanted it, she would be telling me... I mean, it's hard -business.

Q: Did you receive any money for it?

A: Yeah, yeah. Through BB I got some, not much or nothin', but I got some pay.

Q: So what caused this move to the States, what was the specific reason? Was this business-related, or you had the rest of the family up there? You wanted a fresh start in life, try something new. New air, new impressions.

A: Yeah, I was frustrated with all that was happening. I just wanted a new surrounding, y'know. I was very, very frustrated and it was really from a viewpoint down to... everything is like it's coming in and for a young man like me coming up, it take me right down. They have the soundtrack to entrap a young man, a young mind and a young man just coming up (laughs) - you gotta be strong! And access to work is limited, it's just hard labour. So, I mean, the best thing is to get out, and I did. Through a friend, y'know, I went to the emigration, and they turned me down. And somebody mentioned that I shouldn't have to wait, and it worked.

Q: And this was in 1969?

A: '69.

Q: So what did you start working with?

A: When I came here I worked in construction. I learned a trade and even then (coughs)... I go through the steam again (laughs), thru I've been in the steamfitter union for over thirty years.

Q: Steam-fitting? Sorry, not my area (laughs)!

A: Yeah, that's like air-conditioning. But in my thirty years I don't accomplish ten years with no steady work. I have like seven and a half years, and they say I have to have ten years to get any - whatever it is, before it have to be mature, it got to be ten years. You know, this union is... so I just don't contribute, I'm not working in the steam-fitting anymore, I lost out on the steam-fitting. I can't get no pension or anything, y'know.

Q: Where did you settle in New York?

A: I was in the Bronx, I've always been in the Bronx. But through I went to the radio stations I met certain radio personell, who I did shows on, but they were reluctant to play the music. Even though they were the ones buying the time and I don't know if they were buying the time then, but they're reluctant to play...

Q: Reggae in general, or just your stuff?

A: Yeah.

Q: But there wasn't much reggae on the air at that time, if we go back thirty years ago? Limited space on the airwaves.

A: Gil Bailey was on the link, had airtime in the wee morning, there was...

Q: Ken Williams?

A: Yeah, he plays it, but he break it down somewhat. He plays it mainly, what's his name...? Jeff Barnes. He was like tidbit (?) to play the music, he was at I think WWRL. It's like 'bwoooy, is my job to do this or no-one else would' (laughs)! So, is like if you would've gotten some plays then you would have felt it a little bit more, y'know. But I didn't, through I was doing it on one on one and I tried to tap on all the bases, but it wasn't working.

Q: Did you link with anyone you knew from the music business down in Jamaica, when you reached New York? I'm sure you had a few up there already.

A: Oh, yeah, well not from Jamaica but I met - even though he's deceased now - Brad. Brad now, he...

Q: Brad Osbourne, the Clocktower label?

A: Yeah, he tried to talk me into... Oh gosh, he was one of the man there who always want me to record, he tried to talk me into it every time he see me. But, he give me rhythms, I still have them rhythms (laughs) somewhere. He give me a whole lot of rhythms, I just didn't try anything (chuckles). And then he tell me how he send guys to tell me, I mean he tried to. Oh, he tried to talk me into it! But I just didn't have the... I don't know what it is, but it just didn't fit. But he tried, tried to get me (coughs)... into coming. But I wasn't doing any work, the money wasn't there, y'know.

Q: Any sound systems about in New York at that time, early seventies? Brad had a sound?

A: Yeah, Friday nights. No, Brad didn't have a sound system. But Fridays guys would play their music in basements.

Q: Right, like a blues dance.

A: Yeah. But like I said I'm not the one that go into them places (laughs)! No, but friends, y'know, every so often them keep the dance and I drop by. But there's always that atmosphere with most of them dance, so I just don't go, more than go so much.

Q: When did you record 'Spinning Wheel'? What studio was used and what was the session people, who played on it?

A: Oh, well, that recorded in the mid seventies. Somewhere in Brooklyn, I've forgotten the studio name.

Q: It wasn't with Wackies, Lloyd Barnes?

A: No, no. I never record with... if I do record in Wackies' studio it would have been that I played an instrument as such, y'know, for somebody. Yeah.

Q: But he (Wackies) was in the Bronx too.

A: Yeah, he was just... right, right! He was in the Bronx, he's still here. There's some other guys that he hit with, they had a hit not too long ago around here, in the Bronx. But this man is a caucasian in Brooklyn, he had a studio. But one of the keyboard players was one that plays with Bob (Marley).

Q: Glen Adams?

A: No, not Glen Adams.

Q: Tyrone? Tyrone Downie, or 'Wire'? Earl 'Wya' Lindo?

A: I think (coughs)... that's the name, Wya. Yeah, he played that on 'Spinning Wheel'. And then there was this guy - there was a band here in the seventies, the Reckless Breed (later renamed New Breed, settled in Florida and cut an album for Inner Circle's Top Ranking label in 1980 /P), it was then one of the... first time I've seen a band fall off so fast (laughs)... after the seventies, after that era, y'know. Just the bass player I use, and the drummer - he's the one who introduced Wya to me, but I can't remember the drummer name yet. It was a young drummer from Queens. Yeah, I think that's the guy, he's from there. And the guy that plays guitar, I can't recall... But that's how we make it, recording the 'Spinning Wheel'.

Q: And it came out on... which label was it?

A: Timbrell. Yeah, that's my label that I had.

Q: It became like a local hit at the time?

A: Yeah, yeah. I made like ten thousand copies of it, but then I didn't won a one-on-one with it, y'know, within that short time. I tried to turn it over to the next recording, but it didn't work (laughs), the next recording. It was 'Heart of Stone'. The beat, it didn't have a dancehall beat. Everything was going well still over here, but... that's how it went. I didn't do no money. I did some more recordings some time after, in Jamaica.

Q: Oh, you went back to Jamaica? Recorded for someone else, or for yourself?

A: Yeah, for myself. For myself, I tried to put an album together. I came back here and put the tape on and play it back, but there was too many errors. Yet, if I wasn't that much of a perfectionist I would without a doubt (laughs) put this one out! Maybe I would've made some money, if I had worked on the other one, but I didn't. I just sit on the whole album, and it's sitting there still (laughs)!

Q: So there's actually a full album completed, you laid tracks in Jamaica and voiced them later in New York? Who did you use in Jamaica for that project, where was it recorded?

A: Right. I worked at Studio One and then I worked at Channel One.

Q: Who played on it, if you can recall?

A: There's so many different guys. At the time I was there at Channel One I didn't know (laughs)!

Q: Sly, Robbie and the rest of the Revolutionaries, or perhaps the Soul Syndicate band?

A: A whole lot of guys was there, I don't recall who was there (laughs)! But then I made like twenty tracks, and when I came upon listening to them it was a whole lot of errors. Bad note, the basics, y'know.

Q: And the mixing?

A: It could've mixed... then I went and I mix at Aquarius, I make one mix there. I make several mix here and it didn't come up to park. I put out one on the recordings I did. A friend of mine he told me he wanted to record, a song called 'Condition' (laughs), but he's not really a singer as such, y'know.

Q: 'Condition', that was the title?

A: Yeah, my buddy his name was 'David Roots' or something like that he called himself (chuckles). And then I put one out with myself, a 45 I think it was, but it definitely didn't take off, y'know.

Q: But twenty tracks, you voiced them in New York later on?

A: Some of them, a few of them I voiced. But I went over to Coxson's studio over here, BB was here for a little while. So then Coxson's son he was kinda cleaning up the tape for me. A lot of the stuff you know it kinda break down his machine and all that (laughs)! Well, then I was back to Jamaica (coughs)... and I think I took the tape back. I hadn't even been there for a long time, from in the nineties. Brooklyn, y'know, it's such a long ride, man. As I said that it's too much of a long ride to go back and forth all the time, and that's the wee hours of the morning, y'know, when I'm coming home, so I guess I just phase out of the whole of it. But I do have my tapes somewhere still. And my kids, like I said they're not interested in music, so they just didn't hear it.

Q: Such a pity when you had so much recordings... I mean that the album didn't come to the final stage. Ten or twelve of these could've been on it, if you had them voiced?

A: Yeah. But like I said, well, I was too much of a perfectionist. There's some of them that I could've put out. I know that one I chose to put out didn't hit it off, y'know. I guess that's where when you have a - when you introduce music to the public, what do you call it... a party?

Q: The release party, like launching the record?

A: Yeah, yeah. To get the reaction, yeah.

Q: When was it recorded? Like shortly after 'Spinning Wheel', in '77, or thereabouts?

A: No, after this, it's going into the eighties, it's '79/80, yeah. That's when it was done.

Q: Then you didn't do much with the music after that, you had a taxi business instead.

A: No. Right.

Q: How did you react to the rockers versions to some of your songs, hearing interpretations like Johnny Clarke's 'Let's Have Some Fun', 'Stay A Little Bit Longer' by Linval Thompson and 'That's Life' by Ronnie Davis for example? I'm pretty sure you didn't get any compensation for them?

A: Yeah, right. You know, I wasn't even aware of that. BB has sent me some, he take up some of the money but he got sick now and it's just one of them things that always happen, y'know.

Q: Bunny Lee was responsible for most of those recuts. I get the feeling he regretted not recording you at that time when you worked for Mrs Pottinger, so he revived his favourites in this way instead.

A: Yeah (laughs)! That's how it goes, y'know, people just take advantage. That's how it is, man.

Q: But you never heard these versions, you said?

A: No, no. I still don't hear it. I don't really hear no - the only version I hear is by Johnny Clarke. I hear some of the songs he's done, my songs.

Q: 'Let's Have Some Fun', yeah. Nice cut. He did 'Rock With Me Baby' as well.

A: Other than that the only one I heard is the one that BB got me the royalties for...

Q: UB40, right?

A: Yeah, other than that I don't know what's in the game, if I don't hear (it).

Q: I saw that Coxson had a few 12"-singles out in the early nineties when you linked with BB again. One with you and him titled 'The Woman In You', and some 12" by yourself on Studio One like 'Feel Like I Am Falling' and 'Wicked Intention'. When were these cut, how did it come about?

A: I didn't know that released (laughs)! When we did it in the nineties, me myself and BB, and BB didn't even mention due to...

Q: Where were they done? In New York, his Brooklyn studio?

A: In Brooklyn.

Q: OK, at Coxson's New York studio. Was it over vintage rhythms, or digital stuff?

A: No, it was original rhythms, it's from drum machines, yeah. But Glen Adams plays keyboards also. It's always opposed to (laughs)... BB knows about this and though we worked these and he (Coxson) didn't push it, nutten happened there, so I just leave it at that.