Q: The Wailers opened, at the National Stadium.
A: Yes, National Stadium. So I met them all. They came to their (The Wailers) house, them time Bob were living up at Hope Road. So they all came to the house. But then the most interesting meeting that I've had, was Stevie Wonder. And what really struck me was the things he said. For instance he said when he heard 'Trench Town Rock', the song 'Trench Town Rock', he said whatever that artist puts out he wants to hear it. So he took an interes' in Bobs lyrics. And possibly melodies as well, as well as the beats - which is reggae. And then now he heard 'Natty Dread'. So when he heard 'Natty Dread', he said to his manager, "I have to meet the person who sings these songs". So he made his point of due to come and meet Bob. This wasn't any promoters ploy or any promotional agency - you understan' me? - doing these t'ings. This is from Stevie himself saying that he had to meet Bob Marley. And when he met Bob he said to Bob, he said, "You know, you Jamaican artists... you do things we in America wish we could do". So Bob seh, "Like what?" "Say for instance, you can sing whatever comes in your mind - we can't!" In America they are censored. You understand me (laughs)? In Jamaica we are free, man. We can just release whatever thoughts that came to our head (laughs)! On tape or on record.
Q: Yeah, that door is not locked by major label heads?
A: Yes, y'know wha' I mean! So this thing was very interesting for me, to hear Stevie Wonder saying these things.
Q: But still Stevie did indeed his share of socially aware songs like 'Living For The City', 'You Haven't Done Nothing' and all that. Some hard-hitting songs of the time.
A: Yeah, he had to. He had to. Because he realise how important it was. He had to, he had to, man. Because Bob was a big, big influence now. Which he still is internationally. So all of these things, like for instance... what's his name? Simply Red... did a Bunny Wailer song...?
Q: Must be 'Love Fire'.
A: OK. So these are statements. These are things that people could identify with, but they could not put it to words so, or put melodies to it, but Bob did it. And people want to know that they can be part of that. So they would sing over these songs an' these is statements which is really, really symbolic. But when I met Johnny Nash now, that was the experience of my life. Because I didn't know that somebody's voice could be as clean as a silver string. And Johnny Nash had that (laughs)! You know, I was amazed when he came down to Trench Town on Third Street, and this man sat there and Bob gave him the guitar and the voice was... I'm tellin' you... Johnny Nash...
Q: Pure.
A: Puuure, it's like a silver string, man! I've never experienced any other persons voice like that. Jimmy Cliff (is) close, but professionality that Johnny Nash had and the command that he had to read his vocals with, is amazing (chuckles)!
Q: Pity that he more or less has retired.
A: He's in Switzerland (wrong: Johnny Nash is still based in his homestate of Texas, USA). I haven't spoken to him for a long while, yeah... haven't talked to him for a while. I remember the days from Third Street weh I said to him...
Q: When are we talking, I assume it's the late sixties?
A: Yeah, that was like '69. I remember them days on Third Street, man. Yes man (chuckles), smoking the best herbs an' t'ings like that.
Q: It sort of fascinates or appeal to me - even if this regards the environment of poverty which can hardly be "fascinating" that we're speaking of... that these privileged stars from the States, like Marvin and Johnny Nash or whoever, appreciated the Jamaican life more so than the glamour and vanity of the US show business, searching for something more close to the "real" life, something more vital to life itself. You're suddenly living close to the edge of existence in the Jamaican ghetto. At least getting a glimpse of that, that sort of harsh reality... something they probably had lost contact with at home.
A: Of course! Reality, of course. Because, as I said these things taught me...
Q: Getting away from decadense for a while there.
A: Yeah man (laughs)! Facing yourself - that's what it's all about! And I was intrigued about these things too. It's like "Wow, Bob my friend knows these people!" You know, when I saw Michael Jackson and his brothers - the Jackson Five, and then all these... there was some serious experiences in Trench Town. I knew people from America, I knew this white guy... who sold his house, and took all the money and came to live amongst Bob Marley. He came...
Lee Jaffe. |
Bob at the football field in the ghetto.
Seeco, The Wailers’ percussionist is at the far right.
Kingston, Jamaica, 1974.
Photo : Lee Jaffe |
Q: You mean Lee Jaffe?
A: Of course. Lee said to Bob, "I don't want nothin' from you, all I want to do is be around you". And then sometime, he would follow Bob in a cab... where he's going (laughs)! He got to be around Bob! Oh, Lee was... Lee could tell you so much things (laughs)! Bob used to bring Lee down to Trench Town, and Lee loved to play football. Because, you know Americans don't know anyt'ing about soccer, innit (chuckles)? So, this was like (laughs)... Lee was in his element! You know wha' I mean? He's a nice guy, but Bob was like, to me, this person who could influence an' bring down these people. It's like - wow! It made me open my eyes more now looking at the values, or valuing what we have. Because when I see... then there was a Japanese guy as well, have you heard of him?
Q: No, who could that be?
A: What's his name now...? He is the person who... he built Bob's studio, and he services Bob's studio. He left Japan... this is a martial arts expert. Sold all his belongings again, like Lee, and saying that "I'm not leaving Bob Marley". And he's never left. Up to now he is still in Jamaica, and he's at Tuff Gong. And anyt'ing (that) go wrong with the studio he fixes.
Q: Yeah? Never heard of him, I think?
A: Yeah! What's his name again...? He's tall and slim. This is a martial arts expert, yunno. And this man is leaving all a that, saying he's not leaving Bob Marley. Lord... the interest (laughs)! Bob had these influences, bwoy. He did it, he did it... He was gifted, he was gifted and I was able to experience that first-hand. Like... I give praises.
Q: Eventually The Wailers got their breakthrough, we know that story. But did you feel at the time that they had the potential to break big? Who could've have guessed this among the more happening acts like the Maytals, Melodians or Ken Boothe, or Slim Smith? I think at the time people would put their bet on these names and not the Wailers, they were in their corner, went their own way. Even the major league of artists looked down on them.
A: Oh, they were! They were the ganja-smoking group, and whenever they go to the studio other artists would be saying things like, "Oh, them a get dem pipe an' ganja - that's all dem can do! Dem t'ink dem a go reach anyweh?!" (laughs). There were artists saying these t'ings! When Bob and dem was in Randy's studio. I was there, y'know wha' I mean (laughs)! The but is they had a job to do. And they recognise that job from an early age. So, the three a them set out to do the job. Even though it was about seven people in the Wailers, in the early sixties... because you know there was two girls as well.
Q: (Beverly) Kelso and Cherry Green?
A: Of course. Cherry... that is Joe Higgs sister, is Joe Higgs' sister (they are not related - P). And there was some other fellows like Dream (Constantine Walker), Junior Braithwaite, etcetera, yeah? It was actually seven a dem really. But then Junior had to go to Chicago because his dad become the mayor - this is out of Trench Town again, y'know. His dad became the mayor of Chicago. So the whole family had to migrate. So that's what made Junior went away. And then Beverly she had the... she became a secretary. So she went away as well, she went to America as well. So it just left Bob and Peter and Bunny, and they did their part, they really did their part... And going to what you said now earlier: I didn't know, because Bob made me a legend! That, I didn't know that I was going to be a legend, and he made me a legend. And this is how it happened: I was coming from school one evening, and I'm always with the girls - I'm always with girls around, so I was coming from school taking these girls to the bus stop outside of Trench Town. When they came to Trench Town it was to Trench Town School, and Trench Town School was the first comprehensive school - it was an experimental idea for the Minsister of Education to have a comprehensive school in Jamaica. But Trench Town got that gift. I was priviledged to be part of the first particular class when I went there. So we had like some of the commissioners sons and these captives daughters and all these people they are sending into Trench Town, to get this education that was free. And to a very high standard. So I had these beautiful girls, man. So, I was in my element, innit? So I had all these girls I had to take to the bus stop in the evening, and when they get their buses I had to go back on the road. So this particular day I was coming back up on the road and Bob saw me. And he and Bunny, Peter, Bread from the Wailing Souls, was standing on the wall there. So I was going up, and Bob call me. All the while me notice in Jamaica these are the sayings like "face man". You "gwan like yu a face man". Yeah, like you have all the girls, yunno. So Bob seh, "Come 'ere. All the while me see you with a whole heap a girl and they gwan like yu a face man", so me laugh. So 'im seh, "Dem girls me see yu walk with, weh dem live?" So me say, "Uptown, Washington Gardens, Patrick City, dem areas", suburban chicks. So him say, "Dem have four a dem house?" So, me say, "Yes, dem have four a dem house". Him seh 'im have idea, something fe dem fe do. So me seh, "Wha' ever, tell me?" So he took out all these lickle cards out a his pocket that you could request from the radio stations what you want to hear, what songs. And he gave me them, and he said to me, "Give the girls dem that and tell them they must phone in as well as request the Wailers music". So I said, "That's no problem, I'll do that". So I went back to school the following day, call the girls dem, leave them the cards, as one of the friends them as boys... and told the girls them to phone in and request Wailers music. Now, that gave me a job. Because I did that to them now, I started listening to the radio more often, to see if they were playing Wailers music. And by listening to the radio, I start making notes. Like say now "it played Tuesday at quarter past seven on this station", or that program. And then at the end of the week I would take it to Bob and seh, "See the amount a time". And Bob seh, "Wait! You brainy!" Him seh, "Wha'! Yu a t'inker!" So from there we started... me and him get closer. So, I would make a report to him every week. Now, I didn't know that this was gonna develop into this big, massive giant somet'ing that it is today. So all I know is when Bob passed 'way in '81, all my phones were just ringing like mad! All my friends from school were saying things to me over the telephone line, "How did yu know?" "You know, yu are the firs' person that mek me listen to the Wailers! How did you know that the man was gonna be this great?!" And I'm saying, "I didn't know!" (laughs).
Q: Just happened...
A: (Laughs) It just happened! It's like an industrial revolution! It just happened, you get me (laughs)! So he made me a legend. Whether wittingly or unwittingly, but I became like targon, tellin' the t'ing so far, my friends told me...
Q: Like a prophecy of what would happen to them, that this music was the future, the most successful act Jamaica ever had.
A: Of course. And that made me... bwoy, open my eyes even more. 'Cos I'm saying "Bwoy, look how simple that was", 'cos I just took it as somet'ing to do. I didn't take it as anything that was gonna make notches, or indelible marks. So that's where it all triggered from. And then I got closer to Bob now... that one day I found some money for him. He lost some money and I was looking around, and I found it. So when I returned it, oh bwoy... then I smoked that day! I haven't smoked so much in my life (laughs)! That made me get closer to Bob now... that ordinary they are more than the rest of the kids my age. Because he realised I was honest, plus I was this thinking person that he said I was...
Peter liked to think of himself
as a martial arts expert.
Ocho Rios, Jamaica, 1976.
Photo : Lee Jaffe |
Anthony Doyley. (Knowledge)
Photo : Nic Maslowski |
Q: "Brainy"!
A: "Brainy" (laughs)! You know, and then I had what is called an asset, because I used to do martial arts. So he had that aid. So, Bob saw me in action one day, and he changed my name - to "Karate"! Him seh, "Wha'? Yu a karate, man!" "I didn't know he is a karate?"... That's where Peter Tosh start doing karate from. From me, 'cos he see that I was... 'im seh, "Weh yu learn dem t'ings deh, yout'?" And then he took it up an' went... that's all dem things you see him do on stage. He practised hard. So, Bob Marley called me "Karate", the Wailing Souls call me "Karate", Bunny Wailer... everybody call me "Karate", just through Bob, yunno (chuckles)! So, if you see Rita now and say to her "Karate" she would say "Oh, yes!" So that's how that happened. But, for me Trench Town... is the place. I'm gonna give you an example: I was living at Third Street, Morty Planno was living at Fifth Street - that's two streets away. Bob Marley live a Second Street. With his brother, half-brother Bunny Wailer, you know. Bob's mother had a child for Bunny Wailers father...
Q: Pearl, yeah.
A: Pearl, alright. So Bob would be living with Bunny Wailer at the time - the same house. Peter Tosh live on Fourth Street, on West Road... beside West Road. You had Lord Tanamo living on Second Street. Delroy Wilson living on Second Street. You had - you ever heard about Higgs & Wilson?
Q: Yea, Joe Higgs and Roy Wilson.
A: Of course. Well, Roy Wilson was a cousin to Junior Braithwaite.
Q: 'Oh Manny Oh' and the early Jamaican hits...
A: Yes, those songs - 'Oh Manny Oh', you're right. So... and they were living on Third Street. And then you had Lloyd Charmers. He would live on Third Street, do you know Lloyd Charmers?
Q: From the Charmers duo, yes.
A: Yeah, and Uniques, with Slim Smith and them. Yeah, and then you had Lloyd Charmers. Then if you look up the road a likkle further you a go find Alton Ellis on Fifth Street. You understan' me (laughs)? Then, if you go to the bottom of Fifth Street you gonna find Lascelles Perkins. You've heard of Lascelles Perkins?
Q: Yes, early singer, had a son who recorded too - Dino Perkins. I think Dino did some deejay tracks too, for people like Keith Hudson, but Dino got killed. I don't know if you know about it? But regardless, Lascelles is one of those foundational singers in Jamaica, and overlooked.
A: What's his song called...? 'If I Had Wings Like A Dove', right.
Q: Did you know "Batman" (Trevor Wilson) too?
A: Batman? Yeah man! Batman wrote 'Johnny (You Are) Too Bad'. That was Delroy Wilson's brother.
|
 |
Q: Right, but the Slickers claimed that it was their tune (to be found on the classic 'The Harder They Come' soundtrack).
A: Yeah, yeah, the Slickers claimed it. Yeah, Batman was somebody that we grew up with. I can tell you some experiences, man. I'm gonna write my book, y'know?
Q: (Laughs) You should!
A: Yeah! I'm gonna write my book. You know, because there's so much things (laughs)! We had some experiences with Batman that was very, very funny.
Q: But apparently he was a very bad guy, really on the edge, as far as I know.
A: Oh, very bad. I remember one night he came down the road and all them guys used to gamble on the streets, sit on the street under the street lights gambling. Like, playing cards for money. And he would just come down the road and everybody would get nervous. And he would jus' say, "Wha' yu a gamble? A'right, give me a game!" And he took out him gun and put it down deh. And him have no money, but everybody a win ten straight, can get the gun. Y'know wha' I mean (laughs)? So they all started gambling, right? And somebody won ten in the game. So Batman seh, "OK, see't deh - tek it". And he started sweating, the guy started sweating, y'know! So Batman say, "Yeah, but you win it. Tek it!" So the game stood still. So the guy didn't, and Batman said, "Your own nuh, you win it - tek it?! Take it too!!" So eventually he push the man over and he took up this t'ing. When he took it up, Batman just pull another gun from his back, the backpart of his trousers, and he just say, "You t'ink a jus' so? You can jus' get my t'ing so?" And just rob them all of dem money that whoever losing - and whoever win, he just rob them all there! Same place, where all of us grow up together, y'know. He just rob everybody there, and just took up their money and say, "Go home nuh!" And fire one shot in the air "boh!" And everybody run - gaaawd! Y'know wha' I mean (chuckles)!? So he was a rough guy, man. A rough guy. But, he had a t'ing called culture. He had culture. Because there is nobody that could say... try to disturb us, while he was around. And if he wasn't around and we keyman (Batman) heard that somebody did somet'ing that we didn't like or was against us, he would go and look for the person. He had culture.
Q: Right. That reputation.
A: Yes. He had that. And he know Bob. Anyt'ing him do and it come in the newspaper, Bob a the first one he go look for! And show Bob seh "You see dat? A me do dat! Me do dat!" He was craaazy (laughs)!
Q: Right. It was like he took it for real life what he saw in the movies, like western movies, spaghetti westerns? I can imagine him picking up a lot from there, being glued to the movie theaters.
A: Oh yes! He lived it. Lived it...
Q: No distance to...?
A: No. He lived it. If you listen to the song, you will know.
Q: But I think he wasn't really that bad, even though the tendencies were there, until he had an accident and that got to his head, turned him over, made him worse and even more violent.
A: Oh, quicksilver... He had quicksilver put in his head.
Q: Yeah?
A: Yeah. 'Cos I think something, someone had chopped him in his head, and then them days was quicksilver they used to... weh you call it now...?
Q: To stabilise it...?
A: Well, I think it was more like just making something that was moveable. 'Ca you know the brain is mostly water. Yeah, is liquid. So I think they needed something that could move and balance and I think quicksilver was one a dem t'ing. They use it in World War Two, innit? And World War One. Most of the soldiers who got shot in their heads and lived would have quicksilver in them head. So, that was one of the things that they say Batman have quicksilver in his head, and so he goes off sometimes. So him a madman, but yu see him 'ave the quicksilver inna him head (laughs)!!
Q: (Laughs) It's easy to laugh about it but he did a lot of bad things to people, that shouldn't be left out here, and in the end he had to pay the price for all this badness.
A: Of course he did, I'm tellin' you. Whenever he... oh yeah, he had to, he had to! It's always something that is... it is inevitable. You can't escape it. I learned these things that whatever you do it goes... they say it's after you but it goes in front of you. Yes, it goes in front of you. Because how I know that is - if you do something bad, say in the record business, when you reach to a company, when you say to them my name is so and so, they would say "Oh no, we don't want nothing to do with you" (chuckles). "We heard about you". So, I'd say it goes in front of you (laughs). So he knew it was coming anyway. Because he was a serious person. One of the things that I really, you know I couldn't believe he was like that... was that somebody had a gun that was nicer than his. So he's going for it. He wants it!
Q: To get rid of him as well?
A: No. He wants the gun! If it's nicer... Once when something - if it's nicer than his, when it's more pretty or shiny or add somet'ing that he didn't have, he's coming for it! And I didn't know he was like that until one day, you know when yu get older and he was saying, "Remember that gun me had, yu know the way me get it from?" I said, "Gosh, man!" A some story weh the man dem a tell me sometime, a so it go fe true! (laughs). But, I always admired wherein the way him do t'ings an' a come look for Bob. He always go look for Bob, an' seh, "A me do that, a me do that t'ing".
Q: And he was proud of slicin' up somebody or knock 'em out or almost frighten someone to death, whatever badness he was practicing?
A: He was proud, he was proud of the things dem. And another thing about him - he was a loner.
Q: No gang behind?
A: No. Him alone. If it's twelve people him alone come fe the twelve a dem. That's how they start to say to him that him mad (laughs)! Because you can't take out twelve people you alone, if you out there killing, yunno (laughs)!
Q: And for how many years did he go around like that? They say he was killed in 1975, but this was happening since the sixties, more or less, when he ruled the area, didn't he?
A: Oh yes. This is going on from the sixties. Yeah man, this is going on. And he was a very good guitar player, y'know. Some of Delroy songs...
Q: And composer too (Trevor Wilson actually did a few recordings for Coxson and Bunny Lee)?
A: Yes. Composer, yeah. Some of the Delroy songs, is him. Is his ideas.
Q: It doesn't hang together though, the "disciplined composer and singer", who sits down and practices and writes and rewrites lines over and over, contra the badman who gets up from such an activity; the rehearsal, the discipline, the dedication... and goes out to rob someone, or whatever rough things he got himself involved with?
A: Well, it does! Because I tell you the reason I say that. Beca' it's a... what? It's a thin line between...?
Q: ... between love and hate.
A: You understand me. So, I was saying to a friend therefore, yesterday, if you notice that the Romans brought civilization according to what history tells us - western history, that the Romans civilised the western world, yes? But yet there was this Collosseum where the gladiators... they were thirsty for blood. You understand me? They had all this civilisation, all these t'ings that could civilise the rest of the world but then they were still barbaring with blood, rituals and gains. So you can see, some things goes hand in hand. The same debt of povertyness is the same debt of nativeness, you get me? So I saw Batman as one of those kind of people where he had to do one of these things to go to the depth that he did. 'Cos that song 'Johnny You Are Too Bad', it's a really good song. The melody is just great and the lyrical context is just spot on (sings) "Walking down the road with a pistol in your waist, Johnny you are too baaad...". And he was exactly like that (laughs)!
Q: Like writing his own biography, stripped down to a song?
A: Of course. Yes, his own biography, you know. So that took exceptional talent.
|
Three times Delroy Wilson. |
Q: But what was the Wilson family like? Considering Batman's behaviour and attitude towards life, and Delroy was the total opposite of his younger brother... Perhaps there was no one to really guide them?
A: I can tell you some history you don't know. Because Delroy Wilson's dad an' all them people, Delroy Wilson dad dem was crooks. Delroy Wilsons dad was a crook. He used to thief peoples docks an' t'ings like that (laughs). You know, Delroy's dad... I think it was most of the time when Delroy's dad was in the prison, really.
Q: And you don't connect these things to Delroy, don't get the impression that this is his background, considering his style - well smooth and "civilised" (laughs).
A: Well, t'ing about him now is that Delroy was a person who... he always... you always find him down the gully. Where these gullies are, where the waste-water runs. And that's where you'd find Delroy running these board-horses. You ever heard of board-horses?
Q: No, don't think so.
A: You make these lickle t'ings, shaped out of wood - like a diamond. And smooth with a razor at the back of it. Like a rudder. And we'd put it in the running water and whoever had the lightest and most sturdy board, that we call a horse, and if you end up at the winning post, you'd get the money. Yes. So it was like each person put a pound to put in them horses, when to race. And then now off they go at an equal start an' then some horses would get double oval, others would go ahead and whoever win, wins. Delroy loved that. He loved race horses, board-horse we called them. Down to gully every day, and he had the money because he would get a few shillings from Mr Dodd at the time. Not what he expected or what he were earned, but just something that, for a boy at his age, he was more than wealthy than what a lot of other mature males got for amount... that they could spend for a week, y'know? So, he had that. And he was like that, he was one a dem fun people. But then again I think that drinking... money is a dangerous commodity. Because Delroy started drinking at an early age an' you know...
Q: I had heard something about that a couple of years before he passed ('95), someone in the States mentioned that to me, it was when Delroy still lived in the US and could hardly work, being caught up in drinking, and heavily, at the time. It seems he was just totally lost in it, which makes it really sad. He was such a major talent. But a hard drinker nevertheless.
A: Oh, he had drinking problems more than anything else. Because I remember we was at Channel One studio one day, I couldn't believe it! Before he went around the mike, because it was his turn to finish the lead vocal for this song, and then Delroy had to drink about six Heineken straight! One after the other. And I was jus' standing there and he just tracked them one after the other, and then he say "Yeah, me ready now!", and went around the mike. And I was like "wha'?" "What!? Ooohh..." So, he depended on drink, really.
Q: Which tends to make you wonder what is behind this... addiction, if it's financial problems, just bad self-esteem or whatever it could be?
A: I had a thought the other day, I was saying - because I was standing there waiting on someone, and then I found out... I took out my rizzla and started building a spliff., so a thought came to me. And I say "You know what it's all about? It's when you don't have anyt'ing to do with your hands", you know that? And then now that you've said this now, it brought back the same thought that... it's the same thing. You know, when you don't have anything to do with... when you've got money - you drink! You know, it's not an addiction to say "OK, you have to drink". But you do drink. You had the money, maybe the occasion or maybe where you are, the only t'ing that could really occupy you at the time, was having a drink in your hand! And that can be addictive. It can be addictive. So, just out of boredom...
Q: Boredom, or a lack of hit tunes, they had a long time coming - if any at all, perhaps lack of recognition in changing times, a somewhat downward spiral...?
A: No, I wouldn't look at it that way because the reason for saying that I don't look at it that way is during that time when we were singing, we were thinking of music. We were not thinking of making hits that is gonna bring us money. We just loved the music. It was something that we wanted to do in music. So I don't think that it's that downside of it, really. It's just something to do at the time, that's what I'm concluding here. Yeah, I just think it's something to do because as I said to you earlier I was standing there the other day and waiting on someone and get out me rizzla... (laughs)! So, you know, it's just something to do.
Q: And to kill time.
A: Yeah, to kill time. And then it became, you know, what is called "practice and practice becomes perfect". So it is when practicing you get it perfect. Now that's what I break it down to. And also sometimes bad habits as well. 'Cos bad habits weh you pick up from other people...
Q: Or a lack of self-discipline perhaps?
A: Yes. That's the right word! That's the right word, and that's where now... I'm saying to you now the moral state of mind is more important than the money. Because without that moral stand your self-esteem is at peak. So, yeah... that self discipline have to be there. I like that word.
Q: So Batman and Delroy, were they not that close?
A: Oh yeah, they were close. Very close. Yeah man, very close.
Q: And yet still so different individuals, as far as characters is concerned?
A: Yeah, they had different characters, they both live with their mom. On Second Street. Even though she don't know sometimes where Batman is and what he is doing. He would come home...
|
Article: Peter I
(Please do not reproduce without permission)
|
All Rights Reserved. © 2004 Reggae Vibes Productions
|
| | |
