Q: Errol Dunkley?

A: Errol! That's it! You're on it, you are on it. That's it. So we were all younger, we were the younger ones, yeah? But they choose to still stick out to the music. So I jus' said that I'm gonna go back to school, so I just took school for it. And then now Bob and I get closer, and Bob didn't know how much I love music. He didn't expect me to be singin' because I wasn't showing no kind of... you know, no kind of iniciation or any interest in trying to play a instrument when instruments were there, available an' things like that. So I was just like a errand boy. I would go and buy whatever, woulda cook if it would come to the crisis, we would get the football out, the cars an' out wit' the boots, get the boots and whatever - you understan' me? But I was dying for the music, loving the music, living with the music. But, no one knew, only it was inside of me. And then now, '71, '72, I went to Mikey an' I said... I say, "Mikey...". No, Mikey had a friend called Joseph Watt. Now, Joseph Watt is the brother of Jean Watt, have you heard of Jean Watt?

Q: Sounds familiar, but...

A: She wrote some of Bunny Wailer's songs.

Q: Ah, yea. She is credited of writing songs like 'Hallelujah Time', but I doubt it still - it's probably Bunny hiding behind that name, and was Bunny's sometime woman in that period... is that correct?

A: A'right. No, she is his queen!

Q: OK.

A: She still is. Yeah, but she is a Trench Town girl as well. Now, her brother was Joseph Watt, and Joseph Watt was a person who like music as well, and used to work at Federal Records at the time. So he decided to form a group with Mikey. And then they called me and I was to join the group as well. So, we became a trio. And our first competition was in a place out in Two Miles where we had a original entry, and we came second. The person who beat us was a little boy who sang a Dennis Brown song - and clipped us, man! But our song was good because it came second, as a original. But then Joseph Watt now he was one a dem "pretty boys", so him couldn't come a the rehearsal so often as him should and the group... we didn't do any recordings. And then now, I left school and I had a job. And I said to myself "You know what? This job is stoppin' you from doing certain things". "It's stoppin' you from sparring with Bob, it's stoppin' you from smokin', it's stoppin' me from relaxing" - when I've got to get up at six in the morning and...

Q: What was the job?

A: I was a salesman - Jamaica Biscuit Company. Yeah, and so I just stop working. I jus' didn't go back to no work. And I started to locks my hair as well. Because, I found myself as well. I said "You know what? I'm not combing my hair no more, I'm just gonna be me". You know, to live a certain way. I became a vegetarian immediately. And still is. Now, with all a that... boy! All now I'm still ecstatic, y'know (laughs)! I'm still ecstatic! And so... I sat down one day and all my savings that I had was being spent up, because I was smoking and cooking and was having a initiation of being a rasta, locks an' t'ings like that. So, one day I sat down and I said, "Father, you know somet'ing? I'm gonna need money so whatever you see that I should do to make some money tell it to me now?", and this is when talking to myself and me father. And a voice just came into my head and say "You forget seh yu used to sing?" This is exactly what the voice said, y'know. "You forget that you used to sing?" And me seh "Wait! A no lie, a no lie. I no sing yet beca' I see the reggae music take off ca' Bob a get big, and reggae music a get big". So me just walk go up the road, and when me a go up the road I saw Michael. So me seh, "Mikey, mek we form a group now an'...". And you know what Mikey's words were? "You know how long me a sit dung pon the wall and play my guitar and wait fe a man come seh dat?" Me say, "Wha'?" So I mentioned another guy that could sing now - Earl McFarlane. And Earl now, as I said to Mikey, "You know seh the dread up the road?" - 'cos Earl was a rasta as well, "The dread up the road can sing, yunno". And Mikey say, "Who? The dread that walk barefoot?" And me say, "Yeah!" And as we were saying something he would be coming around the corner - singing, y'know. So me just call him and seh, "We just call your name, yunno. You're gonna live long". 'Cause he was one a dem feisty persons, y'know? So him a say, "Wha' yu a call me name 'bout?" So we say, "Well, we're thinking of making a group so we thought of you, ca' you can sing and... weh yu seh?" He say, "Alright". So we say rehearsal starts tonight at seven. And that's where Knowledge started.

Q: This is around '73?

A: Yeah, '73, '74 - that's where it all started. And we started making... we started writing song after song after song, that was just bursting with lyrics. And the songs were just coming. And Mikey...

Q: And this time you felt like you're not gonna enter a studio before you had a catalogue of songs that were up to date and...

A: Alright... no, no! This is the magic part of it. Because we were in Trench Town, and Trench Town is known to be what is called one a dem "known" political areas. We were a bit scared to go out there to other producers. Like, to go to... any producer whatsoever. Because when you leave out of Trench Town you'd be puttin' yourself to jeopardy. So we decided to just sit down there an' write songs. And then now we had this friend who was a lawyer who came from Trench Town, went to America to practice law, and got his Masters Degree/Doctorate In Law over there. And he came back to Trench Town and as a matter of fact he was the person who wrote 'Muriel'. You know 'Muriel'?

Q: Alton Ellis?

A: Yep! It was written by a lawyer, y'know - George Rookwood.

Q: There's creative talents in all sorts of areas in Jamaica.

A: You see what I'm talking about! So George Rookwood wrote 'Muriel' for Alton, because Alton and George lived on the same street. So Rookwood wrote that song, so when he came back from America now because he was on holiday and he decide to come to Trench Town and had the Doctorate of Law an' t'ing, to see what Trench Town is like. He came and saw us as a group, and decide bwoy - he just gave us some money and seh go to the studio man an' build... "You singin' good man and now gwan to the studio". So we took... the first production that we ever did was money from George Rookwood. And there's a song called 'Camouflage' - have you seen it on the 'Straight Outta Trench Town'...?

Q: Yes, that's the last, or next to the last track I think?

A: 'Camouflage'. Well, that was our first production as a group. And we put Family Man Barrett together with Fish Clarke as the drummer, Chinna Smith, Errol Brown as the engineer, which was Treasure Isle/Duke Reids nephew. And, we went to Duke Reid's studio and recorded that song. And George took it away to America and put this synthesizer or keyboard on it. Some white American who loved reggae decided to play on it, and he did a good job. And we put it out as a 45.

Q: Around when? '75, or closer to the Tappa period some years later?

A: This is '75, yeah (chuckles). Yeah, so we put it out as a 45 and then now...

Q: Which label was it?

A: The Trench Town label, it's called "Trench Town". Our own label. And from there now we started rehearsing more. Some friends said to us, "Bwai, Michael Samuels can sing yunno ca' him sing for we every night no one na put 'im in no group". So we say, "So go give him come". So that's how he became our member. And then now Delroy Fowlin was a close friend of mine and he bought a guitar ca' he loved music as well. He used to dance on stage as well so he had a little artistry in him. And he said, "Bwoy, I no have no group so tek me now". So we say come, and we had a five man band! A five man group (laughs)! So rehearsals had to be very, very, very, very practiceable. In other words we haffe do that like when wake up in a the morning 'til you go to bed at night. Ca' how to get a five man sound is not easy - in harmony. Especially without certain experiences, like we haven't got professional people who can read and write music an' things like that. So we had to rehearse more and more often - we used to rehearse like twenty hours a day. And then, here comes Tappa Zukie. This is all happening in Trench Town, y'know. We don't have to go anywhere. Here comes Tappa Zukie wanting to make a group from Trench Town - for the European public - to know that he is doing somet'ing for Trench Town. And we were available.

Q: So there was in fact no other producer involved with the group before Tappa entered?

A: No! No. The only person we ever actually did, or tried to do something with, was Errol Thompson.

Q: Ah, for Joe Gibbs?

A: No, not that Errol Thompson, he was younger - he's a boy (laughs)!

Q: (Laughs)

A: We're talking "ET", on the radio.

Q: OK, he died, yeah - JBC.

A: Yes, "Turntable Time". He was the only person... he was like a brother to us. He used to make sure we have our lickle draw of money an' food and take us faces as a... you know, celebrity. You know, so we enjoyed that. And then he said, "Bwoy, you love singin', we can go to the studio". So we went to studio to do this song... it's called... goes something like "Some woman have a dread lock, some woman love a well right chap, some woman love a soul guy, so she can use him as a alibi" (laughs)! You know... yeah (chuckles)! But, we didn't finish the song because the riddim was made but then Errol's schedule was like "Bwoy, we can't go to studio tonight. OK, we try, but tomorrow!" And then... so we didn't finish the song. And here comes Tappa Zukie. And that's it! The rest is just history. He said he wanted a group and he had a group waiting on him. When he heard the first two songs he said, "Come, we go to studio tomorrow". And we booked the Black Ark studio, which is Lee Perry again now. So our first four songs that went number one and number two on the British reggae charts here in the seventies, was Lee Perry... was the engineer.

Q: Which songs were cut in the Ark?

A: One was 'Make Faith'. And 'Sentry', and 'What's Yours'.

Q: All those done at Black Ark.

A: Black Ark, yeah. And 'Zion'.

Q: Did Perry recognise you after those years since that initial Randy's session?

A: Oh yes! He said the moment he saw us and he saw me, because he had a assistant engineer then, and he said to the engineer, "You know what? I'm gonna do this session myself". Because he was gonna allow the engineer, this assistant, to do it. But when he saw and heard what we were coming with, plus we had Sly & Robbie in the studio with us as well, as the rhythm section, with Chinna Smith and Gladdy (Anderson), and Sticky, and all these professionals. Yeah, so all these people were like OK, masters in their own right. So he said, "Bwoy, these are not gonna allow this to just come through like that". So what he did was to do the session himself. He came and recorded it himself. So our first four songs were Lee Perry. And we got number one in the British reggae charts, and number two. So there now, A&M Records decided that they wanted a competition for The Wailers.

Q: A&M didn't have any serious involvement whatsoever before this - strange that they picked up a "hard sell" like your roots act and not a package for the mainstream (except for a one-off project with a few tracks by Alton Ellis, Ken Parker and Slim Smith in the early seventies Knowledge is still the only involvement in reggae A&M had), as far as I know - perhaps they had a few reggae fans among the staff, but usually this means; no experience of the reggae market, no real knowledge of the music, with the necessary know-how to market a group like that.

A: None a dem, no! And they wanted a competition to rival the sounds of Island. And the best thing for them was a group from Trench Town! So we fell in place there. And everything just went: "Wow! One list like that!" You know, we were in Billboard. And they told me, and Bob himself told me as well, they told me that they got someone who was non-prejudiced to put up the posters. And our posters was where you'd see Frank Sinatra, Earth Wind & Fire, Stevie Wonder - that's where they'd put our posters, y'know. And we were... we got a massive promotional t'ing that went on in England in '78. So when Bob came back from Europe he called me and said to me, "Bwoy, me go a England an' me see photograph deh everywhere - me never know seh yu a sing!" So that's when he knew how much I loved music! Was when he came back from England, and saw all these stickers, you understand (laughs)!

Q: So obviously, there was what you'd call today a big hype behind the group at this point? Very hyped?

A: Oh, very big hype! Very big hype. We were the second... I don't think anybody got the amount of money that we got as an advance in reggae music then. We were like getting the biggest money in reggae music outside of Bob Marley and Jimmy Cliff. Nobody else had that kind of money, getting that kind of money from record companies, but we did. But then now, the group started to detoriate because Michael Samuels now he got stuck with Tappa Zukie... You know, just want to drive around in Zukie's BMW and be seen with Zukie an' neglecting the rehearsals and went to England with Zukie and came back saying that he's leaving the group.

Q: And that was around '80?

A: This was in 1979. He came back and said he don't want to know. So we said: "No problem". And then Earl (McFarlane) now, he start to, like... certain things he wouldn't do. And then he just except himself from the group, so he just left with Mikey an' Delroy. And we just said: "You know what? No problem". We'd go along.

Q: (And then the subject switch quickly from Zukie's role as producer to the discovery this evening, that very first Randy's session for Lee Perry.)

A: Well, this is a blessing, y'know! You know that? This is a blessing, man. You've done something here that I'd never dreamt would have happened! This song here... oh bwoy! This song here... Because I've talked about this song for years and years now and nobody seems to get which part I was at, like knew wha' I was saying. Because nobody could say to me "I've heard it before". Or "Yeah man, me heard something like that". Nobody. It's like "Wow!" You know (laughs)! And here you are, just... I couldn't believe it when you said it, yunno?