Q: Back to Zukie now... by the way, before that - the 'Camouflage' single on the Trenchtown label, what sort of response did you get for that first record - in the community, etc?
A: Alright, I tell you something. That song, we released it and it mostly...
Q: How big was the pressing?
A: We sell a few thousand, but it was mostly in America. It was mostly in America because George took it to America and we just got like complimentary copies for Jamaica. And then he said to us that we could build an album because he was looking on the money for us to do an album. Because he saw the talent and he saw that it could be developed. Then now in comes Tappa Zukie, and George became our lawyer, instead of our producer. So he worked for us free now. Whatever contracts we wanted to sign he would be the first to draw them up and things like that, just to be knowing that OK, he was part of this Trench Town... and he got out. So he can input something, and he did.
Q: You were saying something about Tappa at that stage, he was a bit immature...? Someone not to trust, unreliable?
A: Oh yes! He was immature, he is just in his business attitude. Like for instance, the reason we fell out, because we had a falling out after the first album, is that... and being off in hindsight now, was stupid too - to be frank. Due to the fact that he knew what was happening on the international scene, and we didn't.
Q: He travelled a lot and could scout what was going on, which moves to make...
A: Yes! So when... what really caused me and him to go loggerheads was that... we never quarrel. We just didn't go on with any production or anything like that. Whenever I was writing a song - for if I started writing a song today and you came along and heard it - you want me to record it today! So me say the song is not finished yet! This is only the punchline or this is only a few lines of the chorus. Or this is only a part of the lyrics, this is not the song... Him say "No, a dat mi want! Come! Come, we a gwan to studio!" And I'm saying no, because I was looking at it that I needed to put out songs that I would be proud of, later on in life. But he was just thinking of... bredda, I can't use any other word but just the commercial side of it. He knew what would go well down with the public - especially in England. We didn't at the time, so I was thinking of musical perfection while he was thinking of commercial success (laughs)! So I'm saying now with hindsight I would have done another album with Tappa, because it would've taken us to another level, you understand that?
Q: It wasn't talk of a second album?
A: Yeah! We did! We did talk about it but we didn't finish it beca' he was taking the songs them prematurely, to the studios. Like OK, there's a song on the album called 'Word Sound & Power'. And that song is not completed! And he took it, and he said "Come, we going to the studio with that song". And I'm saying "Look, the song jus'... it started today". Just today, and he come an' heard it and just seh "Come we a go to studio NOW! We do dat song yah!" And I'm like "Zukie, wha' yu doin'?" You know, so I say "You know what? We gonna do this album with you and that's it!" And it just went from there. So I said to myself, he was a bit immature, in a lot of ways in how he conduct his business. But as I said with hindsight I think I was stupid as well, but... here we are!
Q: But you didn't really trust the man from the beginning?
A: Oh yeah! That wasn't a problem. 'Cause the reason for saying it wasn't a problem, as I said to you earlier, in them days we were not thinking of money, we were thinking of the music - in educating the people. And that's hence the name "Knowledge". That's how the group got the name Knowledge. Because we thought that facts is something that we all need. The whole world need facts - the whole earth need facts. And if we can get facts then we would be wiser people. So we came up and said you know what we gonna name the group Knowledge and we gonna sing nothing but knowledge! And you know (laughs)...
Anthony Doyley.
Photo : Nic Maslowski |
Knowledge.
Photo : Nic Maslowski |
Q: That was the whole concept from the group's inception.
A: Yeah, that was the concept of the group. And that's why we are here today. Because we had a concept, y'know. We had a brilliant concept. And I've lived it up to today, I've been a vegetarian for what... thirty years now, or more.
Q: The others in the group like Earl McFarlane, Samuels and Fowlin - what was their previous experience in the music?
A: Well, the only experience I knew Michael Samuels had was he used to sing for harmony, because they all locks their hair before I did. Because I went to school till I was eighteen. They left school when they were fifteen, an' things like that. So they were streetwise boys before me. And he used to be the one that entertain the rest a dem that was on the streets together. When we formed the group they all came to me and said "Bwoy, him sing for we every night - wha' 'appen?! Put him in a group - the man him can sing!" So, we said no problem. Bring him come, and when him come he is somebody that we know well, that we grew up together with, so no problem. Fowlin now he used to dance, he used to be a very good dancer. Have you ever seen that, the dance group that Bunny Wailer have with him sometime? The boys them have this rag in them pockets an' whole of the pants, trousers rolled up and doing these dances. You ever seen a Bunny Wailer concert?
Q: Yes, I saw him live in around 1990 and he had a whole troupe with him, something to represent all aspects of the...
A: ... of the era, yes? And he had some boys doing what is called that kind of robotic dancing - weh them move a certain way...? Robotic style. Well, Delroy was one a dem kind of dancers. Y'know, he had that experience being on stage at an early age (to) bring those dances. So, he had that. So artistically we were endowed, y'know. So it was what is called now five separate talents really, in the group. If we could've gotten that together and kept it together, it would've been an experience for Trench Town on a whole. Then when we formed the group and five of us started singin' and putting out records with Zukie, then there was another group coming out of Trench Town called Earth Disciples. Have you ever heard of them?
Q: Earth Disciples...?
A: Yeah, Bob Marley produced their first record. I think it's the only record them done.
Q: They recorded for Tuff Gong?
A: Yeah, Bob did it on a 45. And they had a tutoring from Bob that we didn't have because we never sung for Bob Marley. We only sung for three or four people. The first one was Scratch, the second one was Rookwood, and the third one was Zukie. And then now we sing for Tamoki-Wambesi.
Q: Yeah, we're coming to that later...
A: OK.
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Q: So you're saying Zukie hid a lot of what you were owed from the sales of the A&M album? I wouldn't be surprised to be honest...
A: Oh yeah, yeah. Up to the other day we got some money from Trojan for the 'Word Sound & Power' reissue. First album 'Hail Dread', he reissued it with Trojan and he didn't call us and tell us. I had to see it in the shops, and bought a copy. I've never had a penny...
Q: From Trojan? I thought he reissued it on his own Tappa label in Jamaica around 1990 - only. I saw though that he have a track from Knowledge on a recent compilation on Trojan.
A: With Trojan? 'Sentry'?
Q: I think it's 'Fools & Their Money' on that. I believe it's titled 'Jah Love Forever', or something like that ('Jah Love Rockers' actually, new double CD anthology with productions from Lloydie Slim, Zukie, Bunny Lee and Niney)?
A: You're joking?
Q: It looks like Tappa has a new deal with Trojan. They did reissue his 1973 debut 'Man A Warrior' not long ago, and it looks like it's more to come.
A: Yes, album, yes. Yes, 'Fools & Their Money' - that was a song, y'know. That was a sound, man. I will never be able to beat that sound again, that I made on that song. Because when I sung that song I had a... I was coming off a cold. So, you know, the tone is gonna be different anyway. And I can never catch that cold again to make that tone (laughs)! Yeah, honest I have fe laugh about that song because the tone is so beautiful but I had a cold, and that cold gave me a tone. I can't capture that tone again.
Q: Well, having a cold it definitely get your vocals a different quality, something you probably as a recording artist would want to capture immediately, like "lets go to the studio, gotta get this down on tape - now!"?
A: Yes!
Q: So at the subject of the reception of your material in JA - I always get that vibe about Knowledge that you were more or less a "foreign" group, not a local affair, more so an overseas act?
A: It is. This is wha' 'appen. The first time, I think it only once... we never had... The only sound that used to play our music was our own sound - we had a sound called Startime. And, have you heard of Massive Dread?
Q: He had some hits in the beginning of the eighties.
A: Yes. Well, most of those hits like 'Soca Rumba' and them hits, we gave him the inspiration for those. Yeah, called him and say "listen to this". And he just took it an' had Valerie Cowan... went to the studio, and he had 'Soca Rumba' which went number two behind Yellowman in the eighties. So he was the only sound that would play Knowledge. And up to today it is only a few, maybe two sounds, that can play a Knowledge special. Because I was saying to myself if a record is gonna be a special then no other sound should be able to play it. So whenever I give a special to a sound no other sound get that special. They would have to get something different. And I've only done specials for two sounds.
Q: And they are called?
A: One is called... what is it - Birmingham, England called... Love Express. And there is another sound called Conscious Melody. This was done in the 1980's.
Q: Did you have any business whatsoever with A&M after this deal for the first album?
A: Well, I think what happened... I think Zukie and we fell out so he couldn't go back to them with anything for Knowledge and that was a bit upsetting for them. So it just died there.
Q: It didn't sell as well as it could have?
A: No. Ca' we didn't even tour - there was no tour. Not even a promotional tour or anything like that. And that was very annoying. And then now we went to a company in Switzerland...
Q: How did that come about?
A: There was a lady called Ira Schader. And she was... that's the word I was looking for earlier: an anthropologist. Yes, I just said you were an anthropologist, yes (laughs). And there was this lady, she was with the Red Cross as well. And she decided to take up Tappa Zukie an' some issues that he was saying on the television that she saw. And he was saying that he wanted to do things for Trench Town. So she was saying OK, so she wrote him and I replied. And then she came to Jamaica and saying that she wanted to do something for Trench Town. So we took her around Trench Town and showed her a few things, and she got involved. She went back to Switzerland and she raised up some money so we could all start up what is called a Old Peoples Home in Trench Town. And...
Q: Is that the Golden Age Centre you're referring to?
A: That's it! It's called The Ira Schader Golden Age Home, yeah.
Q: 'Cos I remember, was this together with Zukie? Yea, I can recall an article from around that same time where a reporter met Zukie down in Trench Town and he was in the early stage of building some kind of center, for either youths or elders?
A: Yes, it did manifest. It's still there today. And so she now with her projects in mind and then with the music there were people in Switzerland that she spoke to who had record companies, and they were interested. So we got involved with them and gave them our second album. The company is called Future Sounds - Peryfery Perfumes, have you heard of them? One of the managers or directors was a Czechoslovak, and one was a Swiss - Renato Balignoly. He had a what is called a graphics company. So he just branched off and did some promotion - they printed some ten thousand copies. I don't think they did a reprint 'cause it took them a few years to sell them ten thousand copies. But what happen was that we were supposed to do twentytwo shows to promote the album, but Zukie because he held us... wasn't in talking terms in the sense of business, he went and did the shows on his own and didn't take us. So we didn't get that promotional experience either for the album so all of that went out as well. So it's all just some simple lickle things that could have made it different. But, give thanks we're still here.
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Q: And this is the early part of the 1980's, the follow-up album 'Judgement' didn't take off and what happened? The group decided to go their own separate ways at this point?
A: Yeah, Michael Samuels went his way.
Q: He went to Los Angeles I believe.
A: Mmm... He went his way, and Earl McFarlane died.
Q: Got shot, yeah?
A: Yeah, we put two more people in the group to take their place. And unfortunately they died as well, from gunshots. So it's just the three of us, and so we say we ain't puttin' nobody in the group.
Q: No doubt Knowledge has a very "violent" history!
A: (Laughs) Very! Our past is blood... I'm tellin' you, man. I'm telling yuh! So all of these t'ings...
Q: But emotionally or mentally speaking, how does it affect you when people close to you, in such circumstances as these, when you have something going and it just have to continue, for survival or whatever. It's not something you can emotionally switch off - you just get affected by it in whatever ways it reach you?
A: Oh yes, it is a scar! It scarred. Because one of the things that really annoyed me was that Earl died - and we didn't know! We thought that he was in Africa! Because I went away to Trinidad and when I came back they said that Earl is in Africa. That time Earl died and nobody knew beca' the guy who killed him painted a picture that he's gone away. Ca' someone killed him that was close to him.
Q: Avoid attention...
A: So he took away the attention from him an' say he was away. So when I came back and they were saying that Earl is in Africa... I know that he is a person of his own mind so I thought OK, he has gone to Africa. And it took seven years for us to find out that he died... from gunshots and was buried in Trench Town.
Q: After seven years?
A: After... yeah! So you can imagine! His mom was mad with me, his brothers was mad with me because they were saying "you knew"! And I were saying "No, I didn't know". Ca' when I found out I called them an' said to them seh "I thought that Earl was in Africa! How come Earl died?". And they said "No, we didn't know neither, we thought it was as you said". And I'm saying "Well, how could I know?". These people they all died as well, the people who did it, so...
Q: And how did you get to the truth of what really happened? Someone opened his heart about it?
A: Someone told me. Someone that was there came to me and said "Bwoy, I have a confession to make, yunno". And he told me an' me seh "What!?"
Q: Under what circumstances did this happen?
A: Well, Earl was a bit mouldy, innit? And this guy was a bad boy, y'know (chuckles). So if you try to humiliate him, he's gonna react. And that's how Earl died. So... and then Michael (Samuels) died after. You know, was messing about with people's things that he shouldn't be messing with.
Q: Was that in Jamaica too?
A: Yeah, it was in Jamaica.
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Q: After he had left Los Angeles then. He did one tune there - it was an old track that was released, wasn't it?
A: 'Dreadlocks Time'...?
Q: Uhm, was it? I think it was 'Give I & I Some Work'?
A: Oh, 'Give I & I Some Work', yeah.
Q: For this guy Anthony Doeman (now deceased), I believe. An old tape then?
A: Yeah, that was an old, old tape. Yeah, so Michael died and then...
Q: Almost the same circumstances?
A: Yeah! That's crazy - stupidness, innit! Gunshots, and all a dem die from gunshots - that's the evil part of it. They all died from gunshot wounds. And if I wasn't careful, I don't know what would've happened. I had to be careful. Because then I wasn't one of them rastas who was just rastas. You know, so nutten could influence me. I don't think politicians in Jamaica like that. They like when you can be influenced.
Q: Independent...
A: Well, when you're independent, you become a threat. So I just said to myself "You know what, I ain't gonna make these people take away the care that I was supposed to take care of myself". So I just took care of myself, man. And, here I am.
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Article: Peter I
(Please do not reproduce without permission)
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All Rights Reserved. © 2004 Reggae Vibes Productions
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