Q: Right. So what became of the remaining parts of the group now - you split and didn't reform until you made this album for Tuff Gong, around '86? What happened around this time?

A: Oh, we went on tour in the West Indies. Went with the Diamonds, Freddie McGregor, Judy Mowatt, Royal Rasses, Arrow - from Montserrat... soca singer. Pablo Moses, Pablove Black and a few others - we all went on tour. In the early 1980's, that's where I met my first child's mom - in Trinidad. And we just had this problem, that we were living in Trench Town. And all the producers an' t'ings were from the other side of the political spectrum. Which was the PNP party. So if we go out there, we're gonna have a problem. So the group wasn't really defunct, it was just under the umbrella of being in Trench Town. We didn't want to go out there and get hurt. You know, so we just said "You know what, we ain't gonna rush ourselves, we're just gonna stay at home and rehearse and practice and perfect our voices an' perfect our writing", and etcetera. Because if we went out there, we would have all kinda problems. For instance, guys would be saying things like "Wha'? Dem group ya - a Trench Town dem come from, yunno! Dem bwoys deh a rey, rey, rey yunno and would all fire shot offa we an' we haffe go fire back shot" (laughs)! So my grandmother always tell me "prevent is always better than cure". So we prevented that, and it seems like that lapse cause us to be out of the mainstream of reggae artists from Jamaica. But, we took it up back... with Roy Cousins.

Q: Yes, but you did this lp 'Strive For the Highest' before that though?

A: Yes, that's our own production.

Q: How did that project come about? It was in '87 this was done through Tuff Gong?

A: Yes, what we did was... in 1976... '78, when everybody was in the peace... you remember the peace...?

Q: The peace movement, the One Love Peace Concert?

A: Right. Yeah, well, everybody was writing peace songs - Jacob Miller, Peter Tosh, all a dem was writing peace songs. And me now I said that I'm gonna write a peace song but it's gonna be different - the word "peace" is not gonna be in it. So I sat down and I wrote this song 'Strive For the Highest'. Because the lyrics goes like (sings): "It's so good to see people changing, and they all have their reasons". And the harmony says: "All have their reasons, that's like the sun that shines, everything have its season, everything was made good, set was better and the best, all humans are expected to strive for the highest". So, I wrote my peace song, and I wrote that '78. When we had some money from the tour, in the early eighties, we decided to go in the studio and make another album, for ourselves.

Q: So this is basically early 1980's sessions, released some five years after they came about?

A: Yes, five years after. When we did the 'Judgement' album we said OK, no problem. We're gonna do another album. So we put in two more members in the group to make it up to the five. Beca' we have lost two. And went to the studio and all the older songs we said we're gonna put them on the album, make up this compiles album together. And we're gonna name it 'Strive For the Highest'. 'Cause the melody for it was so good, the lyrics were brilliant and the instrumental accompaniment were fitting, so we said we make this be the title track for the album. And we put it to Tuff Gong, because them knew us - everybody in Tuff Gong knew us, as Bob's associate an' close friend from long time, an' things like that. So when we went we said, "Family Man, we've got an album". So him said alright, "You want put it out, OK". So they put it out.

Q: And a very small, limited pressing?

A: About 500! We just press five hundred. We gave them to distribute mainly, they didn't put it out. We pressed five hundred and put it out ourselves. They just had the label of Tuff Gong on it to distribute. It was just a distribution deal we had signed with them. So we just said no, we ain't pressing no more. It's something that we had to get together. And that was - I, personally speaking now - I needed to get my peace of mind. And peace of mind - as I said earlier - doesn't come with money. Peace of mind come before money. So if you're gonna have peace of mind, then money, you'll be a better person. So I set out on this treck, I just wanna find peace of mind. And I started reading a lot, just reading, reading, reading a lot. And speaking to older people as well, I enjoy speaking to someone of the age of eighty. You know, seventy or the eighty years old. Because they've got a history with them. And so I went on that quest, and put my head together. Then I started valuating things as well. I started realising the value of the things that I know, and the things that I've seen and experienced. So I'm saying "Yeah, I'm getting there". And then when I reached that summit of thought, I said to myself "You know wha', OK, we going fi sing again" because I've got all the ingredients that is required now to be able to put it across, as I would like it to be heard. And I went to Tamoki-Wambesi.

Q: Yeah, when did you move to England in the first place?

A: '88.

Q: You had some relatives in England I guess?

A: Yeah, my mom. My mom did live here from '59.

Q: So you settled down in London. How did you link up with Roy (Cousins), he has been based in the UK since the mid 1980's too, you knew each other from earlier on?

A: Yeah, we knew each other from Jamaica. Because he was in...

Q: ... in the Royals.

A: Yes, and he was a postman as well. And I knew him from then. And the songs that he had was great. So when I came to England and someone... I met this photographer, her name is... what's her name? She died now. Anyway, I met her one day and she said, "You know something? You are Knowledge, aren't you? You know, why don't you come to such and such a place? I can give you a number for him, you can call him?" And I said, "Wow, that's beautiful". And I contacted Roy and he said, "Bwoy, how yu doin'?" And I said, "Yeah man, me still singin'". And me said, "Me cyaan stop!" (laughs). You know, and I said, "So mek we do some now?" And he said, "Of course!" So there was no money, but we did it!

Q: But this lp is based on old riddim tracks?

A: It's old riddims, yea. 'Cos him never have no money fe hire a studio so I said to him, I said, "Roy, I've got some money, we can go to the studio an' make riddims - I would spend my money". He said, "No, I am the producer, and yu no spend no money - you're the artist. Come!" (chuckles). So he gave me these riddims and I looked at him and I said, "Roy, I've never done this before". I've always sung on my own melodies. So him seh, "Well, because you haven't been for a long time on the scene I think this would be brilliant to introduce back the group". So I said, "Not a bad idea, mek we work". So I work, and produce the 'Stumbling Block' album.

Q: There was a couple of singles from this album, yeah? I remember I picked up 'Chant Rastaman' at the time, and there was...

A: Yep! And 'Fire Burn'.

Q: There was another one as well -'Lend A Helping Hand'?

A: That's a good song, yunno! "Shoulder to lean on".

Q: Also 'Na Buy Apartheid'?

A: 'Na Buy Apartheid'... that song is a... "you broke our bones". Yeah, that was a protest song. I was protesting, innit (laughs)!? "We na buy apartheid"!

Q: Suitable for the times.

A: Yeah (laughs)! That was good. You see, when I remember that song I have to laugh because I was looking at "they broke our bones", and I was looking at people like Muhammad Ali, during the time of him not going to Vietnam. And I had Nelson Mandela in mind, and I just put this in the words together "they broke our bones, but we na buy apartheid" (laughs).

Q: But on these recordings, it was only you now from the original group?

A: No, no, is me an'... have you ever heard of a song...? There was a song years ago - I think it's the early 1970's, it goes something like this (sings) "You can run, you can run but you cannot hide, you can't hide you can't hide, but you can't avoid the destruction..."?

Q: Yeah, that sounds like The Hurricanes - it was done for Perry. That is basically Danny from the Meditations as I know it, perhaps Winston Jarrett was involved as well.

A: OK, well... the guy who make that song, he's here in England with me now. And he's a Trench Townian as well.

Q: Who is this?

A: Uhm, we call him "Struggle". Yeah, he's called Struggle now. Yeah, but what happen now is that he was a better singer than Delroy Wilson - him and Delroy Wilson was two close friends when growing up as boys. And him an' Delroy Wilson was the closest so the two of them was supposed to go to Mr Dodd that day to do the audition. But something happened, I think he broke off him toe? And him couldn't wear shoes. So he didn't go and Delroy went - and got the audition. And that's how you hear of Delroy more than him. So I just... when I saw him in England I just said to him "Come, we're going to the studio, we put some harmonies to these songs". And that's how we did it (laughs)!

Q: The music reinventin' itself even when using foundation rhythms... I don't know about that? This is what some people say. One constant aspect of it is that the music becomes kind of stagnant, and it is "cheap" in more than one way, isn't it? The question is if this makes the music progress? Hardly.

A: It is! Very cheap. If you noticed... Well, if you noticed there's not a Knowledge out there apart from the Roy Cousins that is sung on any others riddim. Because, when I realised... I just did it because he said to me, "You know, you haven't been out there for a long while - introduce back yourself, these are roots riddims". So I said, "OK, lets go". But that's it, it stop there.

Q: Just an experiment?

A: Yeah, so I went back... I'm one a dem people who is adamant about singin' on other riddims, I'm very adamant and against it because it cheapens the music, it's the right word. And it takes away the talent from the creator as well because you can't create your own melodies. You got to be living off melodies, and then all the young singers who are coming up thinking that is the way. And that's why the music is so poor now. In the sense of artistry. You know, there is no artistry in the music at all nowadays because of all a that. Everybody think "Yeah man, give me the riddim deh! Give me the sleng-teng riddim deh!" And he's gone thinking that he is making music - and he's not, you understand me (laughs)! And that's why the music is in this dilemma today. And people is coming to me and saying, "Bwoy, that deejay deh cyaan sing yunno, man!" So me say, "Hold on deh, yu jus' said to me a deejay, and then yu a seh "deejay" and then you a say "sing" - which deejay can sing?? There's no deejay I know who can sing, there's no deejay records that is a singin' record, it's deejaying". So people is getting all this mix-up and all them kinda things happening. Yeah, so is the right word - it's cheap. And I told Roy. I said, "Roy, you ain't gonna get no other chance like that" (chuckles). So what happened now is that I had some money the other day and I went in the studio and I made some original riddims. And some original... everything, man. It's brilliant. I'm just looking for a good company now. I was offered some money the other day by M10 (a French distributor - P) an' the money wasn't enough that they offered. They offered fifteen thousand, I said no. I spent more than that on the album, so come up with some better...

Q: Vocally speaking, it struck me comparing the vocals on the Cousins production and the more rough singing on the majority of the Zukie recordings, you obviously have more...

A: Yeah, finesse.

Q: It's like you have more space to work with your voice, you "stretch" the vocal further than you did before, more atmosphere, more strength, perhaps more confidence, even.

A: Yeah, it's maturity as well. I did, I did. Of course.

Q: Doesn't sound like the singer on the Tappa production, that is for sure.

A: No, it doesn't, no way near. No way near (laughs)! And if you hear this new one that is coming out now it's a total different range again. Because this one... I sit and I sing every day. I play my guitar every day, and I'm experimentin' with my voice as well. And what has happened now is that I use the word maturity in the sense that OK, after years of practising an' t'ings then you know the corners. In other words they say that old broom sweep clean? No, new broom sweep clean and old broom know the corners. So, I know where I can go. We can reach there and there because of rehearsals. So I put that on the records for Tamoki-Wambesi. And then on this new album now is a whole different range again because I'm going in areas that is brand new. I've got even what is called modern ska. You ever hear that word? Modern ska. Well, I've got modern ska on this album here. And it's beautiful, it's taking... something else. You will have to hear it.

Q: So after that project with Cousins, what was next? There was a long gap between that and... this talk of the 'Great Experience' album?

A: Oh, 'Great Experience' is this one I'm telling you about. Yeah, this is the one I've produced myself.

Q: This has been going for a couple of years?

A: Yes, from '99, or 2000. I haven't finished it yet. Because of funds I haven't finished it. I have finished eleven tracks out of thirteen. For this I just wanna do some, like, finishing touches to the lead vocals, and then finish the other two tracks and it should be ready for the public.

Q: But there was no other work for anyone else, during the nineties?

A: No.

Q: What did you do for the most part of that decade, what was the...?

A: Just read. I just read a lot. And helped a few people along the way. For instance, I did some investments in promoting reggae artists like Prince Alla, the Mighty Diamonds. I made sure they got good pay. And the show was professionally put together, and everything was in order. Because I was saying to myself that as an artist I know how you feel when you leave your country, and everything is not together. So I made sure, so I did some promotions over the nineties. And, well, Prince Alla. From the moment when I took him and he made the first show, he's been touring ever since.

Q: Some Knowledge singles I want to know about, apart from the first one and the works for Tappa and Cousins there are a few others, such as 'Man Talk Truth' and 'Let Us All Stand Up' which both came upon the Knowledge College label? What is the origin of those? Tapper Zukie?

A: Yes... None a those are Tappa. None are Tappa. Those are the ones from the 'Judgement' album from Switzerland. Yeah, none a those are Tapper Zukie, Knowledge produced that.

Q: "Knowledge College" - your own company I suppose?

A: Yeah, that was our own label. And the 'Rod of Iron' song now too, it was distributed by Tuff Gong in Jamaica as a single. It went up to Miami, didn't come to Europe. It sold a couple of copies. It is the only song in the world that I have collected royalties from, yunno? 'Rod of Iron'. It is the only song that I have ever collected royalties from. All the other songs, I have never collected royalties. And Tuff Gong put it out and one day I went there and they said "Oh, we've got some money, we got a check here for you". And they showed me the overseas statements and... is the only song I've ever collected from, no other song (laughs)!

Q: That's the history of Jamaican music, I guess.

A: Well, that's the love of it, isn't it (laughs)! That's the love of it. Because you see what happen is that I said to myself and to the rest of the group - 'cos we had that beautiful rapport with each other, we still do, is that we don't wanna be making songs that is not edifying. We wanna use the media to educate ourselves - per se', yeah? And that way we know that the half that has never been told will somehow come out. Because that half is very important to make our own. So we said that there's a certain way that we are gonna sing and a certain type of lyrics that we're gonna produce. It all... isn't based on money. So when we didn't get any royalty an' things like that we didn't see it as a setback. We just saw it as OK, one day the truth must surface because the truth does seem like oil. So we jus' said is alright, we're just gonna sing and put out music and later down our grandchildren might inherit some kind of... whatever will come off a that.

Q: Yea, the spin-off...

A: Yeah, the "spin-offs" (laughs)! So we are saying to ourselves, it's OK. Because, when you are a pioneer you are a pioneer. I mean, America is the richest economic country in the world, and those pioneers they have been through the roughest times. So we've got to look at it that way, when you're making a foundation then you have to be thinking of escalation. You have to escalate, foundate, so you can build. A no so?

Q: Build some kind of legacy.

A: Of course. So that's what we said. I just buried my thoughts in educating myself. As I said I just went into books. I just started reading, I just started going to the libraries like every day for a year. Just reading, reading, reading, reading, reading... Just to make sure when the time come like now I am able to be eloquent - I am able to say the things that went on in my mind in the seventies, in the sixties. I am able to put them into perspective. I am able to balance them properly from my personal upliftment as well, y'know. No money never come, but the legacy deh-deh (laughs)!

Q: Right.

A: Oh! That's more than money! Because there is a lot of people that made a lot of money, but there's no legacy. And I'm so pleased that we made that choice from a early stage in our professional career. You know, 'cause now it's paying off. Because people like you and others who are what is called collectors and...

Q: ... "anthropologists"?

A: "Anthrop-..." (laughter)!

Q: I never knew what it was, but now I know (laughs)!

A: (Still laughing) I like that. There was a lady who used to live in Finland by the name of "Elena Ratanavaara". You ever heard of her?

Q: I know about someone called Sister Rat, if this is the same person?

A: Yes, that's her. Sister Rat, Helina Rautanavaara. (coughs) She...

Q: I think she used to be on the radio (correction: that's actually a totally different person, I found out from reliable source. Helina herself had a very interesting lifestory and spent a great deal of time in JA in the late seventies, but sadly passed away a couple of years ago)?

A: Yes, and she came to Jamaica. And, you know, she used to spend a whole... she would just spend hours looking at me, yunno? Staring at me and drawing, 'cause she is a very good artist. And she would just draw my features and different positions and (laughs)... Sometimes my friends would say to me, "You know, she's crazy", because I'm not paying her any mind. I know she's there because she comes and say hi and we make sure she's OK and whatever she requiers, you know, it's available. But then she would just spend time looking at me, and if I'm cooking... lickle more showed me a sketch of me bending over the fire blowing the wood - "pphhh!", blowing the coal - "pphhh!", and all the ashes coming up in my face (laughs)! Yeah, Helina Rautanavaara (laughter)!! And she gave me a joke one day. She said to me, "You know, I've been all over Jamaica, and Trench Town is the only place that I've been to that somebody invite me for dinner!" Yeah! Beca' when she came to Trench Town to look for us some of the neighbours saw her and said, "What?!" "You come here every day, you know what? Sunday coming, come here to my house for dinner". And she was sooo, you know, pleased because no one had ever done that to her. And Trench Town is supposed to be the worst place, y'understand? So she was very, very impressed. She's got some sketches of me, yah man.

Q: Long time ago?

A: Oh, that was in '76, '77. Yeah, Helina Rautanavaara, from Helsinki, Finland.

Q: So how did this compilation CD with the French Makasound label come about?

A: Oh, well, this is magic again. Makasound is Romain and Nicolas. They have a friend by the name of Electric Dread...

Q: (Winston) McAnuff?

A: McAnuff! Now, Nicolas was on a quest to find all the abstract reggae artists, the ones that was not...

Q: Like neglected, obscure?

A: Ah! OK, obscure, right. So he and McAnuff went on this verbal quest of saying things like, "McAnuff, you know seh for every artist me aks you for you know weh dem deh? You give me a connection with them. I bet you cyaan find one artis'?" And McAnuff seh... McAnuff said to him, "Any artist weh sing reggae music, and yu waan find, me can find them for you". So Nicolas look at him and say, "OK, I going call a name and you will never ever find this named artist - Knowledge!" And Electric Dread just smiled, and seh "Yu talkin' Anthony Doyley?" And he went in his pocket, took out his mobile phone and rang my number, and when I answered him said, "How yu do?!" Me seh, "Me cool, everything alright". Him seh, "Talk to da man yah!" And he put Nicolas on the phone and Nicolas say (in very English accent): "Hello". And I, with this rough voice: "Hello! Irie...". Him said, "Are you Anthony Doyley?" I said, "Yes". "Are you sure, from the group Knowledge?" He said, "I can't believe it, I was just joking with McAnuff and I didn't know he really knew you - I thought you guys were missing, man!" And that's... it started from there, just like that.

Q: That was in 2000?

A: Yeah, 2000, or 2001. Yep, that's how it all started and he was saying, "Bwoy, I'm coming to England, man". And he came to England, and we sat down. I told him that Tappa Zukie had the rights to the material. So we contacted Tappa and we gave him two thirds of the... what do they call that again? When them give you the money?

Q: The advance?

A: Advance, that's it! So he got two thirds of the advance. But the t'ing is, he got two thirds of the advance but still yet he'd never ever - when he got money from the album ('Hail Dread') he would never give us any money. Like, you know, say: "Bwoy, me get some money now offa the album", or: "Me draw business with the album". He's never ever done that. That's why I said to you I've never ever collected any money from royalties, outside of 'Rod of Iron'. Ever.

Q: Did you approach him about this?

A: Oh yeah, yeah. Spoke to him last year about it.

Q: And he said?

A: He just laughed (chuckles).

Q: Zukie is in one part a very talented roots producer, but there's the badness?

A: Oh, he is. Love it, he love it... love the badness. But the good t'ing now is like, you see, how I look at it and the rest of the group that is still around, is that he's done us good. In the sense that he's established us.

Q: Not the best for the business, but at least he gave you a break at the time?

A: Of course. And that's why I say I don't have any bad word to say of him, y'understand me? As I said earlier, the pioneers have to go through certain things. So I take it as "that was the work", to do with him, to reach this stage. And I give lots of thanks for that, and hail him up, y'know. And as I said earlier, money wasn't the order of the day. The order of the day was to get across what you were thinking and your assumptions and their conclusions, and also decisions, y'know. So, that was good enough for us. The pay, or the wages, is you! You get me (laughs)! Because now we know that we did something that someone here now is learning. Or had learnt from, and that's the wages that we were looking for in the first place.

Q: To reach out.

A: Yeah, to reach out. And he's done that. Give thanks.

Q: So how do you feel about the whole package, the presentation of the album?

A: 'Straight Outta Trench Town'? I think it's great, I think it's magic (laughs)! Yeah man, I like it. I can see that there was a lotta thought and time plus energy went into that. I appreciate that a lot.

Q: How has the sales and response been to the album so far?

A: I haven't got a statement yet. But they did two pressings already.

Q: It's certainly gonna boost the group out there again, the first push for whatever comes next.

A: Yes. And there's so much that I would like to get across. For instance talentwise, there's a certain amount of talent that I know that I possess and I would love to share it with the public. And this experience again that I've got that I would love to get the public a first hand knowledge of. There's so much, you know, there's so much...

If there's ever been, the time seems now right for a serious comeback of this vocal group. Knowledge has the 'Great Experience' album to release this year - which presently looks like it could be issued through a Japanese label, as well as a re-release of the second lp 'Judgement', and possibly a tour. Tracks like 'Fools & Their Money' and 'Make Faith' will be released on 12" respectively by Stars/Trojan this autumn, and 'Population' as well as 'Good Luck My Friends' found its way to be included on the Tapper Zukie anthology 'Proud To Be Black' earlier this year. Meanwhile, for starters (of this once-a-quintet-but-now-a-trio consisting of Doyley, Mikey Smith and Billy Bronco), and there's a lot of them about, to get into the world and musical vision of Knowledge you'd be better off checking the 2002 'Straight Outta Trench Town' (Makasound) anthology. It's very well put together and features the best recordings they did on their own as well as the bulk of Tappa Zukie's productions. Doyley's inital experience with recording for Lee Perry after this interview took place got identified soon thereafter; The Classics' first and only track for Perry was a single released in 1971 through Pama's Punch imprint. For me, at least, it is the sort of track that simply sends shivers down your spine, it's got that sort of quality about it. Roots music ahead of its time, and a stunningly mature teenage vocal performance. Doyley informed me that The Wailers had just recorded a first version of 'Baby We've Got A Date' (more known as 'Rock It Baby') just prior to the duo's debut session at Randy's back in 1969. Not a bad start. ["Seven inch singles info courtesy the RKR/Roots Knotty Roots Project"] Take time to visit the website of Trench Town Reading Centre, a place for Trench Town kids.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)

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