Q: One shouldn't forget what reggae was looked upon in those times, late sixties, and not only as a chart phenomenon, as an overgoing novelty music, a type of... cheap trend, which would eventually...

A: Fade at the time? Well, they was wrong. I mean, the music, the whole concept of the music is really a teaching material, is a teaching medium for Rastafarianism. Within that time, it wasn't really actually designed for that purpose, but we took it to that level where it become a righteous music, in terms of teaching righteous things to the people.

Q: What about the feel for putting strings to the music at this time, people felt in general that it was suitable to adding textures like that? You felt that too, to polish it up.

A: Yes.

Q: And ultimately water it down.

A: Yeah, well, it wasn't a matter of watering it down, it was really experimenting to see if you could lift to a classical standard, and John Holt was very successful in doing that. But I liked my raw music, I like to be raw. I don't like to add - I like harmony, and I like horns, percussion. But I don't think, y'know, to taking it to a classical level is for me. My music is roots music, it's different.

Q: So the switch from filthiness to consciousness, this move was...

A: Well, like I say I was motivated by talking to my first child, my first kid, which was a girl. It changed a lot, made a lot of change. It just changed my life. I start thinkin' a lot different, and I mean sex should be confined to the bedroom. It is a sacred act and it shouldn't be exploited in a public way, and it's just my old fashioned way of thinkin'.

Q: Right. The first batch of the conscious and spiritually based tunes you wrote, that was songs like 'Rent Crisis', 'Black Equality', 'Pray For Me' and 'Murder In The Place' - all those songs. When was that, and what became of them?

A: Yeah, that was in '71. I think it was '71/72 all those songs came about. That's when I actually start doing cultural stuff. So far as 1970. 1970/71, I started with a song called '(Bring Back) Macabee Version', which was banned on the radio because the Book of Macabee was banned in Jamaica at the time.

Q: And that was because of...?

A: Well, Jamaica is basically a Christian country, and anything that goes against Christianity is not accepted. Even science. I mean, I don't think Jamaicans produce scientists because Christianity is...

Q: Blocking the way.

A: Yeah, there's that element of scientists - and Christianity keep out a lot of good things in Jamaica, I'm sad to say.

Q: But you are undoubtedly one of the pioneers singin' about social issues in such an open way, things like that could have ruined or kept your career back if it was the sixties. But you must've, naturally, received a lot of fight for standing up to...

A: Yeah, I do. I do, they banned my records. I get most records banned in Jamaica. As a matter of fact, when I sent records to the radio station, they had a commitee, a panel of people who sit around a table and listen the lyrics before they give it clearance. And eighty percent of the time I was banned, because I sing about social things. I remind them of the evil and they don't like that (chuckles).

Q: Tell me the inspiration for a tune like 'Black Equality'.

A: Because of the class system that runs Jamaica, the ruling class of society. And the colour of the skin is very important at the time. The red people get over and the black people can't really make it much. So, y'know, class-ism is one hundred percent worse than racism, beca' you know how to avoid the racist but the classes just allow you to excel. They put the borders there, steering - there's a thing called 'steering' there. The house doesn't follow what they sell it for, they put a price there just to make sure that I don't buy one, because they don't want me next door. That's what it was at the time and that motivate that song.

Q: 'Ginalship'.

A: Well, all these was actually - well you could actually classify these songs as political comments, although I hate the word 'politics'. Politics in my vocabulary is a dirty word. Politics is people tricks people a parasite, they're people's parasite, they have the calling.

Q: Partly, for instance, how they use music for political purposes.

A: They use everything for political purposes.

Q: A power-game, a game in the shadows.

A: Yes.

Q: Regardless if a couple of hundred innocents lose their lives in the process.

A: They don't care, politicians. I don't know, to me it's just a parasite (chuckles), I'm sad to say. I won't give them no credit.

Q: But ultimately, even if you want to or not, you become a tool for politicians as an artist in Jamaica, like for example when you hooked up with Derrick Morgan in 1971 and did 'Let The Power Fall'. Was that something they took without your approval, or Derrick gave the PNP that song? Not that it would be likely that they asked for permission to use it anyway (chuckles).

A: The story behind that song is just that I went into Randy's studio one day when Derrick Morgan was doing a session, he handle about six songs. I didn't hear any of them sounding right, they couldn't generate any interest in the streets. So I said to him: "I hear you make six songs, but I don't hear any hits". So he said: "You got somet'ing?" Right away my mind flash back, reflect back on Sunday, where this ice cream van was drivin' through the community. After having an ice cream I hear this loud speaker on top playin' the psalm 'Pour a little power for me, O lord'. And I decide to build a track, Soul Syndicate band was at the time playin' 'tuh tuh thuuh', and I said: "No, I want my beat different from any other beat, I don't want no straight ska". I want 'tikhy thiky, thiky thiky thiky', instead of that 'chek chek'. And it sounded good when they started playing it. So the song came out and it was an instant hit. And then some guy came to me and said: "The People's National Party is interested in having your song as a promotional song for the campaign". So I said: "Is no big deal, you can go ahead". That asked for my participation, and because of the Michael Manley at the time - the idea that he had about democratic socialism sounded good, so I decided to be a part of it. But is not that I'm really interested in politics, is just that his concept was new and was interesting.

Q: How do you look back on that era now, you feel it had a lasting impact on Jamaica, as far as improvements went?

A: It did good because it enlightened a lot, even the things we didn't have an idea about. It did because it liberated Rasta. But, it still a little bit bad because Jamaica has always been a - is not a welfare state, we never hear of welfare in Jamaica. If you don't work, you don't eat - that's the system. He changed that by showing people that they can get something out of nothing, and that was the only bad thing about his regime, the freeness mentality that he left on the people, beca' it scar them until this day.

Q: In what way?

A: Because people expect to sit down, not working and make money. I don't know how they do that (chuckles), but that's what they figured Michael Manley was tellin' them, y'know.

Q: Pretty naive, if that's the case.

A: Yeah, 'the person who is working takes care of the person who is not working', is that type of scar that it leave in the minds of these people. And capturin' the land, y'know, buildin' your house on another man's lot, and they legitimise it in order to get foods. You see a lotta ills that was being done to the people from that. But there was a lotta good things as well, because at the time we had ninety percent illiterate, a standard take. Christian countries always have a lot of illiterate people. There was ninety percent illiterate and Michael Manley break it down to about seventy. So it have its bad and it have its good, y'know. But there was more good than bad.

Q: It did a few good things.

A: Yes.

Q: They did create a lot of programmes, what was JAMAL and the Crash Impact Programme based on?

A: Yeah, 'Crash Programme' (also known as Special Impact Programme). What happened is that the people was starving actually, the unemployment situation was very high. So it created - the streets were dirty at the time, 'cause the other government was stupid people runnin' the country under Shearer, Hugh Shearer was prime minister at the time. They wasn't doing anything, the country was actually runnin' down. So he say: "Instead of you stayin' home not eating, not having anything, grab a broom, come on the streets, sweep the streets and make a bit of money". That was what the Crash Programme thing was about. But I tell you what - instigating all of that, them change this. When they win the elections 1972 there was a pause. All the promises that he make to the people was not forthcoming, I even started feelin' the blunt of that. Because people used to tell me in the street: 'Look man, you is one a de man who used to go with dem in this campaign and dem not doing anyt'ing fe this area, and dem start bring in violence too'. So I had to go back in the studio and make a song called 'No Joshua No' (coughs), it said: 'You took them out of bondage and they thank you for it, you sing them songs of love and they try to sing with it, but now they're desert, tired, battered and bruised, they think they have a say, they think they have been used, and since you are my friend Joshua I want you to know, Rasta is watching and blaming you, we want you to forward and start anew' (where the late Prince Far I made a deejay cut in response to Max with 'Yes Joshua' using the very same rhythm, a previously rare track now available on the excellent 'Silver & Gold' anthology on Blood & Fire). Well, he summoned me to Jamaica House (coughs), and told me that he had the song three times on one cassette in his car, and he played it day and night beca' it motivate him. Even ask me to not sing that type of song for the time being, because he's gonna do somet'ing. And that's when all the social programmes come in, everything that he tell the people that he's gonna do, he start doing it. So that song actually motivate him.

Q: What about 'Press Along Joshua', what's the difference between those two in terms of aim or intent, this was like the follow-up to 'No Joshua No'.

A: Well, those songs was actually during his campaign. I joined the bandwagon because, like I say, I liked his policy. And I start writing songs to elevate the campaign, and 'Joshua Row The Boat Ashore' and all of these songs was all about him. Which, I really don't regret it, beca' he was a good man, the best government Jamaica ever had.

Q: You still feel that way.

A: Until this day. The only government that come close to him was his 'Godfather' (chuckles) - (Alexander)Bustamante. This guy runnin' the country now is not all that bad, but he's not all that good either.

Q: (PJ) Patterson.

A: Yeah.

Q: But Manley was more and more becoming a threat to the Jamaican upper-class and the United States, as expected, took note of his obvious left-wing policy, I suppose they didn't want someone to create yet another Cuba, so to speak.

A: Look, anybody that doesn't say 'Uncle' - that's threat to the United States. The Americans say 'God bless America - and nowhere else'. So any government, any country, anywhere in the world that doesn't say 'Uncle' gonna feel the Americans wrath. And that's what happened to Michael Manley, that's what happened to Maurice Bishop (Grenada), that's what happened to a lot of quick Caribbean leaders who refuse to say 'Uncle'. They die like a fly.

Q: Not saying 'Yes' to what the US government dictates, that can be fatal. Uncle Sam's megalomania, it's a disgrace isn't it - which is talking about the policy, not the population. They're simply hiding behind the concept of 'democrazy' you mean?

A: Exactly. If you don't dance to their music, you gonna have a problem. That's what reach Michael Manley, he didn't dance to their music. He told them that Jamaica is not for sale. But in the end, all he had was to bow to them anyway, beca' when he see what them did to Maurice Bishop, he didn't want that to reach him. So that soften him a little.

Q: Did you ever speak to him what happened behind the curtains, if he was that open about it?

A: No, we were never that close to discuss anything of that nature, our contact was music. Our contact was basically just music.

Q: What about 'Public Enemy Number One', there is no political undertones there?

A: Well, no. 'Public Enemy Number One' is a different thing. 'Satan' is a concept, it identifies evil. Anything that is evil is Satanic, and the spirit that drives one to commit such an evil act, is in the spirit of Satan. The spirit of Satan is in everyone, the spirit of the Almighty is in everyone. You noticed I said 'the Almighty'?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't wanna use the word 'God' no more, because it is desecrated by religion, so I said 'the Almighty'.

Q: At that period, early seventies, you had several recordings between three parties: Niney, Lee Perry and Bunny Lee, you moved together a lot at that time.

A: We were friends. We were good friends and we had fun together. It's just ironic that Lee Perry had to branch off into what he had become. Still unexplainable to me. But we had a bond there that we were three different producers, three different labels, but we write music and produce music together. At the end of the day, you put that on your label, you have that on your label, and you have this on your label. That's the way it distribute among us.