Q: The Big Four was primarily a white outfit who played pop, R&B, a variety, I think. A: Yes. I went to Paris in 1965, and how I get to Paris; I went to the Roaring Twenties one night, and this guy said someone was looking for me, so when I got round to it and this man just comes to me, and says... this guy introduce me and say, well, this is 'Mr So and So' and blah blah blah, etcetera, they are lookin' for a singer with a band, to sing blues and whatever, t'ing like that, right. If I would like the job? So I said yes, just like that! Just like that, just like that. And I used to have books, I used to travel with books with songs of American artists and my own things, you understan' what I mean. So he says: "When can you go to Paris?" I said: "When would you like me to go to Paris?" He said next week. Q: (Chuckles) A: And there I go (laughs)! Because something came up, something came up so it gives me an opportunity to... was to leave, you understan' what I mean. I can't go into those details anymore, you understand, but it give me an opportunity for me to leave. So I went, I went. I was working in a club called the Curosamba. It used to be on Rue de Rennes off the Franglais de Parade. And then when I finished with the club, I start work in a next one called the Billbucky. And then I worked in the Blue Note, and then come back to Curosamba. Because, it was owned by an African man, from Nigeria, a very nice guy, veeery nice... oh, "'Samba, 'Samba, 'Samba". That man, yeah. Oohhh boy! The treatment you get, good treatment from certain people when you do 'Samba, y'know. Curosamba is no longer - the club is, but it's a different name now. He sold it out, he sold it now. So I used to work with The Big Four, and all the guys are English. One of the guys' name is Howard Casey, and Dave, Dave Sparrow him used to play... no, Carl! Carl was the drummer, very good drummer that boy. "Chow, doo, doo!" But it was a good band, it was a very good band. Q: What sort of material was on your repertoire? Ballads, pop, all that stuff? A: We played blues, ballads, R&B, classics, y'know. All - you name it! Because I do those things really, because I do those things down there already. Because now people hear you singin' and hear you go on a lovers rock show and you go up there, y'know, and you have some people to go 'oohhh', they don't want to hear them artist there, you see. But that it doesn't matter. When I go to classic place to work, I work. I go to classic place, I will work. Because I can sing almost any song, the only thing I can't sing is opera. Q: Mmm, that would be a bit too hard, eh? A: (Chuckles) It would be a bit too hard, y'know, because one of these days I said to myself 'Before I go I must sing a reggae in opera'. Q: (Laughs) Good luck! A: I'm tellin' you, I'm tellin' you! I said before I go I have to sing a regular (rigoletto?) in opera, because everything I do from Jamaica is the first, the first, the first, first, first, first. But unrecognised (pauses)... by the government. I've seen artists that comes after me, looooong long after me, they can't even hold a range of a chord today, and they're giving them big awards and all them things! And neither myself nor Bunny Lee get nothing!

Owen Gray

Q: That's a big shame, it truly is. A: I've got award, but I'm not talkin' about that kinda award, I'm talking about... Q: Recognition. A: Recognition! That's what I'm talking about, recognition. Some get - look at Toots & The Maytals, what they get, they... you know? Ohhh! And Toots not really putting out nutten much nowadays, that's not... Toots. Because when Toots get rid of some of the guys them in his band and start mix - get in the white guys them, he start get downhill. When he got honored in Jamaica he just get rid of his guys them and start using the white guys and he get honoured. So, this is it. Q: I heard John Holt was awarded recently, so now it's 'Sir Holt' I guess. A: Eh? Well, good luck to them, boss. God already honored me. Q: That's the best. A: I'm telling you, God already honoured me, and Him honoured me big, big, big time. Of course, Him honoured me big, big, big time, Father does that for me. That's my honour, my honour from God is giving me life and keeping me alive, keeping me clean. Keeping me clean and giving me strength so I may continue until when the roll call. Q: Can you remember this one (playing 'River of Tears' from Jamaican Gold's 'Its Shuffle'n'Ska Time With Lloyd 'The Matador' Daley')? A: Which one? Yeah man, '(Cry Me A) River Full of Tears'. Q: You remembered it. A: Yeah man. Q: I wonder who it is providing the harmony there? This is for the Matador anyway. A: Yeah, yeah. Alton was doing some harmonies there too, Alton was doing a little bit of harmony in there too. And a next guy from Spanish Town... what's his name again now...? Ah, damn! Q: Not Dennis Walks? A: No, not Dennis Walks, no. But I know that Alton was on that too, I know that Alton was on it too. Yeah man, 'Cry Me A River of Tears', man (chuckles). Oh dear, oh dear.

Q: How did you find working with the highly regarded Matador, Lloyd Daley? A: The thing about it, I never had too much with Matador, y'know. Because, he used to have a business in Spanish Town, because I even do over a record, an English record for him, which was doing well. But them people mock me up in the old system, I don't know if they was trying to keep me out of the money or whatever t'ing like that (chuckles). But it fell wrong. A nice record it was, because it was playing on the BBC an' t'ing like that, and he went and he gave it to a guy named - you remember Buster Pearson? Q: Heard the name somewhere. A: You know these guys that have these kids named Five Stars, you remember a group named Five Stars? Q: I think it's UK pop. A: Yeah, he used to play guitar in my band. Yep, yep. Buster Pearson, man. Yeah man. And he gave it to this guy called Buster Pearson, he put it out locally without any promotional side on it. Then he gave it again to this guy named John that used to work on a local radio, so John took it to State Records, Mac and Kate Kissoon used to work for them. You heard about those two, Mac and Kate Kissoon? Q: I haven't heard their songs, but they were a fairly popular soul act back in the seventies. A: Yeah. Well, they was working with them, and he took it to them. Because I did all some photo sessions and thing like that, and was doing some promotion. And when people was going behind my back now and want to collect money from them for me an' t'ing like that and it was a bit bungy, bungy, bungy until the people them just give up and says 'ooohhh', y'know what I mean. The way they was going on like, y'know, asking for the big, big moneys them an' t'ing like that, without even I knowing about it. So it faltered, it faltered along the way. But other than that... Q: The hardcore ska wasn't made in London at this point in time even though it was selling, you had to sing the R&B and pop stuff. The producers you worked for, you had artistic freedom to branch out and do these things? A: You see, but even though they know I'm versatile, they're lookin' on the quicker money-maker. And that was the Blue Beat and the ska and the... whatever. It will make even more money for them, more than having me doing something like soul or more classic and try for a chart. This is how they react. It change a little bit now, but in them time how they was lookin', they was lookin' to see well, 'let me try Owen Gray in a classical way' - which I've done for Chris Blackwell. Because, if you can remember a song called 'Gonna Work Out Fine', that's been done by Ike & Tina Turner, well I did that for Chris Blackwell, y'know. Because Millie (Small), the one that sing 'My Boy Lollipop', she was in the background (sings): 'Everything gonna work out fine...'. But that was for a chart, but something faltered (chuckles)... and it get dropped out.

Owen Gray

Q: But you did several records with Millie, 'Do You Know', 'I Don't Want You', 'Never Say Goodbye', 'Sitting Back'. A: Well, yes, the thing about it is that I'm the one who teach Millie to sing, because is not Blackwell discover her, y'know, it was Coxson. Yeah, it was the late Sir Dodd. Coxson, he was the one who discovered her. He brought her to my house and asked me to see if I can do something with her. Q: What was your impressions of her when you heard her voice for the first time? A: No timing, she was way out of time. Because, is two things in music I tell people: it's hearing and your timing, you see. And I used to take her down Mr Dodd's place he had down the Lane, Waltham Lane, right, and he used to have piano in this room. And I used to sat her down, and teach her how to have timing, to count her foot one, count one, two, three, four. I said: "You count like that, you can't miss!" Q: (Chuckles) A: (Laughs) Right! And the first, the song me and Millie was to do, was 'Sugar Plum'. That's the first song I've written for myself and her to be done, 'Sugar Plum'. And then we do 'Do You Know (Do You Want Me To Cry)', you understan'. And we done... Q: 'You Don't Want Me'. A: 'You Don't Want Me' (sings the chorus). All those songs, you understan' what I mean. Q: 'There Will Come A Day', 'Sit And Cry'. A: Yeah! You know. And 'Sugar Plum' has made her a name. But as far as I heard how she got to England, because she had contract - she was contracted to Downbeat. And Chris Blackwell must've heard her and wanted to take her over to England in the sixties. This is what I hear, I don't know how true it is or positive it is, I only can go by what was told to me. And Chris Blackwell buy her out of the contract. Q: OK. A: Yeah. I was told Chris Blackwell bought her out of the contract, and that's how she come to England and then makes 'My Boy Lollipop'.

Millie Small

Q: What was your reaction when you heard that song being played on BBC, "oh, what's this, being played on mainstream radio and all"? It sold a million if not more (apparently it sold around eight million copies). A: The thing about it is that... I don't stop people from making money. I've never been a grudgeful youth, and I've never been a grudgeful man, and I've never been grudgeful to no one, who wants to make money. 'Cause what is to see, let's see, I have it. But what I didn't like about her, I don't know if (chuckles)... if she was coached to say these things on British radio, I don't know. The thing that she had said, on the radio, it was ninety percent just lies, ninety percent of them was just lies. And what gonna make it worse is when they took her back to Jamaica and they do all these filming things with her from where she was coming from. And it shows on British television over here and people think different now, they think different at the time when they saw that film. It's like a documentary from where she is coming from an' t'ing, and Chris - this is what I'm saying: Chris Blackwell never do those things for me or does it for Jackie, you understand. He never do those things for me or for Jackie, but when they're chiselling that she used to climb banana tree! Listen my friend, no human can climb a banana tree. No human, it doesn't care - you coulda put a baby, you could put a young baby on a banana tree, it's gonna go down with you! Because it's a flexible thing. That banana tree is there to bear the fruits, to bear the weight of that fruit, and even when that fruit they start putting on its hands on the banana stalk, you see the banana tree start bend! And it's a very slippery tree, and she said she used to climb banana tree... She don't drink milk, she don't drink Jamaican milk. And every morning she used to... 'phwwhh!' She comes to the television and then she start to talk about her first song that she wrote. Q: But she didn't write anything as far as I know.

A: I know! Because she was a lickle dunce, and still for all to see she was a blooming dunce too. And she didn't give me a - she did not give me a speech. At the time I was working with Chris and that time his office was in Oxford Street, London. That's where the base was, and when I went down there one day and I saw her and as soon as he saw me going to her - because I was gonna blast her off, man! He calls me, he says, "Please Gray, don't do it to her". I says, "Chris, then why she comes on the radio and says she wrote songs - what song did she wrote?!" I says, "I trained her!" I said, "Did you pay for her advisor counsel too?" I said, "I didn't even send her to no advisor counsel school, I want the culture for her, to train her, timing, and how she must use her breath". I said, "I am the teacher for her and you know that, and you allow her to come and tell me and talk those rubbish on television and don't even big me up". That was what I was mad about her for. But I saw her on her own and I tackled her about it - not before crowd. We sat in a café place in Victoria and I sat down, and I looked at her, I says: "Millie, you got there, but you don't reach yet!" Same thing I said to her, y'know. She says, "Why you say that, Gray?" I said, "You got there but you don't reach yet". I said, "You must remember where you are coming from and where you're going". That's all I said to her, y'know. I said, "Remember where you're coming from and where you're going". I heard she'd gone to Africa. Nobody can't hear nutten from her, until when they re-release the song 'My Boy Lollipop', every day it's in the paper: 'Where is Millie, where is Millie, where is Millie, where is Millie?' And no Millie, right. As far as I hear now she is living in some flats around Victoria Station, round the back of Victoria Station in London. I don't know how much kids she has, y'know. That's her business. (Coughs) She could have a million kids, that's her business, you understan' what I mean. But when it comes to her duty of respect, you should do. Chris Blackwell, I went to Jamaica and I go and do some recording in Harry J studio, for me and Millie to come and do, and when we came back to England - that time he had the studio in Ladbroke Grove, if the studio is still there I don't know if he sold it out or whatever, but the studio is still there working same way, 'cause some big band going there and work. And I don't know, when we get around the mic, she couldn't manage the damn thing! She couldn't do it! And Chris Blackwell stays up in the control room, and waves his hand like he say to me, says: "No no, no. She can't do it, you alone do it". So, there you go, you see. So that's why I said, I told her she must remember where she's coming from and where she wants to go. That's it, y'know. And also she just dropped out of (inaudible), she just dropped right out. No more Millie, no more Millie. And that was it.

Q: And that was the last time you saw her? A: That's the last time I see her. I haven't seen Millie for nearly thirty years. Nearly twenty odd years going up I haven't seen that woman. I don't know where she is, but I know she is not in Jamaica. Because she bought a house, where they was living she bought a house and they renovate it up an' t'ing like that, but it gone back to where it was, and it worse now. Because they had storm, two storms, danger storms in Jamaica there, Gilbert and, y'know, she comes from a place called Spanish Town. May Pen, that's where she comes from, May Pen in Spanish Town. And I don't know where she is, I don't know. I've never buck her up. Q: What was the attitude like, superstar already? A: Oh yes! Oh yeah, it was like you couldn't talk to her, man. Q: I see. A: Ah, oh! Look at that, oh what! Q: That's what you'd call 'swell-headed' in Jamaica I guess. A: Swell-headed, swell-headed, swell-headed. It's like, there's a next word for it too, right, it says 'Never come see come see'. But what you never see before you come and see it now. But you have to have eyesight to see forever, or for how long it is. 'Never see come see', that's what she is, she was. She - you couldn't talk to her! 'Whaaat?' She was something else. She was not Jamaican-Jamaican, she become a Jamaican-English-English, you understand what I mean? Q: Right. A: That's what she comes in, a Jamaican-English English. Poshy! A pooooosh (chuckles)! Posh. Q: Talking about the later part of the sixties in London, you worked a bit with the Rudies band? A: I used to, but as you talked about The Rudies, I am the one who formed the Rudies group, yunno (chuckles). Q: Really? A: Yeah, of course! I am the one that formed the group.

Greyhound

Q: Who was in the line-up in that band? They became Greyhound later on. A: Greyhound after a while, became Greyhound after a while. Q: Who were these guys? They pioneered the backing for several harmony groups and artists visiting the UK from Jamaica at that time. A: Well, they came here when they was young, and two of them was small islands. One was from Trinidad and one was from Antigua. Q: Jamaicans? A: Yeah, there was Jamaicans, yea. The drummer was Jamaican, the drummer was a Jamaican. And to be honest, I haven't seen... I don't know if they've gone out the (inaudible), so they may be in Miami or America or wherever, but I haven't seen them for time. I haven't seen them for time, time, time, time. I haven't seen them for time at all. I don't know what direction they've gone, or they went. Q: What other bands worked as a reliable outfit for Jamaican music in that time, to use? A: Oh, there was a few bands around, there was a few bands around, man. Oh, there was a few bands. Q: Did (Prince) Buster use the Rudies when he came over, or did he bring his own band? A: He did bring his own band, the band was formed over here for him, y'know, pick-up musicians, from various pick-up band. From various bands. Q: Didn't you work with Guy Stevens too? A: Oh yes. Q: A pretty hip and influential figure in pop circles as far as I know. A: Early sixties, innit? Q: Yes. A: Must've been, yeah. But Guy Stevens used to work with Chris Blackwell. Guy Stevens, I think he used to be an A&R, he was an A&R for Chris Blackwell. I haven't seen that man for yonks, haven't seen that man for yonks, man.

Q: I believe he took his life in the eighties or something like that, or if it was an accidental overdose, whatever. A: All right, all right. Q: Then you headed over to Pama, the Palmer brothers, for a while? A: Oh yes, I start working. Well, I work with Palmer in the sixties, 1968 when I made the first record for Pama called 'Girl What You're Doing To Me', and that was a big lick, y'know. Q: Just like Trojan at the time, they did more of the pop-oriented reggae than what was happening in the Jamaican dancehalls. They headed at BBC, if possible, which was hard enough in those days I'm sure. A: Yeah, they were doing pop and a mixture, which was good. Which was good, they wasn't just staying on one level of the music, they was trying to improving various areas of the music, that's what they was doing. Q: I suppose you didn't get what you deserved out of the sales, that had to come from club work? A: Oh, oh... what I got is less than I was hoping for, what I got is less than I was lookin' forward to. But he who steals my purse, steals trash.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)