SEPTEMBER 2004 Q: You did some performances down in Australia some weeks after we spoke last time, how was it? A: Oh, when I went? Australia is fine, y'know, Melbourne. Q: First time? A: No, second time, right. Melbourne was fine, it was fine, the weather was fine. The shows that I did, they worked out OK. Was very, very good attendance, good turnout. I did three shows there. Q: Sydney too? A: No, I've never been down to Sydney. But I think next time I may go to Sydney because as I say I may be going to New Zealand, and they're trying to wrap up one more gig which may be Sydney, so we'll see if it work out that way. But Australia is nice, man, Australia is a nice place. Nice country. Q: Who did you play with down there? A: Oh, I played with the Melbourne - the big band in Melbourne there, an orchestra, y'know. They have a big band over there, they deal with... they play anything, not only jazz. They play a little ska, some Rhythm & Blues, boogie. Blue Beat music. Yeah man, they do a little ska, more than reggae.

Owen Gray in Melbourne (photo: Glen Smyth)

Q: Someone I spoke to a while back was curious about the expression 'Blue Beat' in itself, if that's basically the UK version of Jamaican ska, done by musicians from various parts of the Caribbean, primarily Jamaica, and settled in London during the early sixties - as if this was the UK version of the Skatalites' hardcore ska, hence 'Blue Beat'? A: No, because it's the original, it's the original Jamaican music. Q: And the R&B. A: Rhythm & Blues. Yeah, it's a bit of Rhythm & Blues, y'know, it's more Rhythm & Blues - twelve bars. You have Blue Beat, the ska, rock steady, then reggae. What that name come from, we used to listen to a lot of Latin music - the merengue. Because the late Laurel Aitkens that died, he used to sing calypsos before he comes into this 'ska thing', like, y'know. Yeah. But I find that they're more - even on the radio stations, they play more ska music and Blue Beat music. The early, early, early fifties, sixties them, y'understan' what I mean, more than reggae. Q: Not surprising, that music has eternal life. A: Well there you go, man, y'know. It was very enjoyable to hear these musicians play this kind of a music, y'know. Big band, man, it's a big band. It's round about... it was round about nineteen. Q: Oh, nineteen piece orchestra? Great. A: Yeah! Yeah man, that was - I'm not joking, man! Horns, horns, horns like... the horn section alone is around like seven or ten. The horn section, because you have trumpet, trombone, saxophone - baritone, alto-sax, y'know, flute. Those were the kind of instruments that was used in the early music of Jamaica. And these people's been studying these records for years, years, years and years. Q: Knife it. A: Yeah. Because one of my friends, it was some people and I stayed at their house, he has got a band too. Yeah, he's got a band of his own, around eight or nine of them, they're doing good. Really, they're doing good. Because (chuckles), there's a guy over there that I - he's got a studio at his house, and he's a musician too, because he plays guitar, he plays drums, keyboards. So we get together like when I had my last week there, before I did the last show, because I had a week rest. It was a Sunday, about two weeks to rest, y'know, but the last show I was to do before that we went to his house, and we did a record over there, titled 'Inna Di Yard'. I wrote the song. Yeah, I wrote the lyrics, because the Friday before the show we had... I did some cookin', yeah, and I said to them too: "Invite the friends them that comes to the show" and blah blah, and it turns out very, very well. Because I cook some curry goat and rice and... Q: (Chuckles) A: (Laughs) Yeah man, we did curry goat and rice, went downtown and get all this stuff together, man, and come back and set it up for the following day. You know, we did curry goat and rice and chicken and... you name it, y'know. And, believe me, let me tell you something - if I never stand firm I would never get any, to be honest with you. Everybody comes. Because what we was expecting, is more than we expected. But it's a good thing seh more food had been cooked, you understan', like we had the chicken and we had the beef and whatever. But they enjoyed it, they says you have to get around more times (chuckles). But I had a great time. Q: It sure sounds like it. A: Oh yes, I did. I did, I did.

Dennis Sindrey (photo: Brian Keyo)

Owen, Graeme Goodall, Coxson Dodd

Q: Did you perform anything with the old Caribs group, Dennis Sindrey and the boys? A: Well, the thing about it is that Dennis was there, but Dennis didn't stay because Dennis had to go somewhere else and was to do some things. But he was there like sez a few weeks before I came, but I never get to see him anyway. But I saw him in Canada, y'know, in 2000. Q: The 'Legends of Ska' show. A: Yeah, yeah! I met him on that show, yeah. On that show, but I never met him in Australia, 'cause he had left, y'know. Q: Who were the original Caribs apart from Dennis, this was a bunch of Australian guys, right? Not just him alone. A: No man, is all Australian guys, innit. Yeah man, the Caribs was from Australia. Q: They recorded at Federal in the fifties I believe, cut some records over there. A: Yeah, because Federal was the number one studio that everybody like the late Sir Coxson - that was where we used to hang out, the main studio where we used to do our thing, where we used to record. And then when we worked with Chris Blackwell, they used like JBC or RJR - Radio Jamaica. Q: How come the Caribs ended up in Jamaica at the time? A: It's like Canadians used to be in Jamaica, y'know, it's like Canadians, Australians, Americans - whatever, y'understan' me? Because the engineer, the engineer for the studio... Q: You mean Graeme Goodall? A: Graeme Goodall. Q: 'Mr Goody'. A: Mr Goody (chuckles)! Mr Goody, Mr Goody, man. Yeah, I'm tellin' you, man, a lot of strange faces was in Jamaica them times, a lot of strange faces. Because if you remember this guy, he used to be an MC - Charlie Babcock. Q: Right, 'the cool fool with the live jive'. A: 'The cool fool...' - same man. 'The cool fool', he died now, y'know. Yeah, he died. Yeah, yeah. And the funniest thing, he died a few months before Jackie Mittoo. Q: In 1990, yes. A: Yeah, he died a few months before Jackie Mittoo, because he and Jackie Mittoo always clowning together and lickin' down the waters. 'Cause Jackie was... yeah man, Jackie was a waterman now. Q: 'Drink like a fish'. A: More than a fish (chuckles). He drink more, a fish can only take in so much, yunno.

Q: Where did we end it the last time we spoke, I believe it was when you started to record for the Palmer brothers, Pama Records, in London in the late sixties? A: A-woah, that's in the late sixties, that's around like when I started with Pama. Q: Like '68 or so? A: '67. Yeah, '67/68, them times. And the first record I did for Pama was 'Girl What You're Doing To Me' and the B-side was called 'Woman A Grumble'. Q: And they did good for you? A: Oh, it did. It did, it did! (Chuckles) Because, Alton used to joke about that, more men - yeah? More men bought that song - that record - than women, because the man them bought the song for the B-side, y'understan' me, they bought it for the B-side, right. The women them bought it for the A-side, but the man them really buy it for the B-side, because it sez (scat-sings): 'The more we do woman a grumble, the more we work woman a grumble, some man don't work at all, they think they need a man to do it all, and when everybody start to grumble you notice they a grumble, for a rob you it's just a woman...' (chuckles). The more she get is the more she wants and still a grumble, y'understan' what I mean? Q: Right. A: So that's why the men them bought that particular... the B-side. Q: It 'hit home' so to speak. A: Yes! It did, it did, it did, 'cause it went down well in Jamaica, and 'Girl What You're Doing To Me' went down well in Jamaica too. 'Girl What You're Doing To Me' comes in like 'Darling Patricia' and 'Shook, Shimmy & Shake', because 'Shook, Shimmy & Shake' was a big hit in Jamaica, it was in the charts for weeks and weeks and weeks. But y'know, because of lack of promotion in this country, it never really promoted properly. Because 'Girl What You're Doing To Me' came in the British charts, it came... it was in the forties. Yeah, it came in the 40, but you see, these people just sit down and wait to see what's going. They don't keep at it, like, y'understan', they keep on... Anyhow, I give thanks and praise, I'm out there still and I'm still there for whatever time to come, y'know, whatever time to come, man. Q: So Pama did some releases back in Jamaica for their product? I thought they mainly focused on having it out in Britain and Europe at the time. A: I think that - yes, I think so because they weren't concentrating on Jamaica at all, just the foreign market. Just the foreign market, just foreign market. They never concentrate on - because I am the one who took the record to Jamaica. I am the one that took the record - my record, my records - to Jamaica, and give it to the radio stations, JBC and then RJR in them times. So I'm the one that done all them things. And whenever I do a record for them, I'm always at - because I always say to Harry, because it was Harry Palmer days, right, Harry was around in them times before he get into the Christian business.

Q: He moved back to Jamaica now, right? A: Yeah, yeah. But (chuckles) I don't know why... well, it got to be something why they hide him from me when he comes here, they does, y'know! Q: Yeah. A: I'm not joking, it's true. It's true! Q: Yes, yes, I understand, I believe you. A: Because when Carl say to me "Oh, Harry is here", I sez "Well, let me see Harry", he finds all kinds of different sort of things to talk about - "Oh, he gotta go to New York". I say, "Why come to England, go to New York, come back to England and then go to Jamaica?" "Why don't you just go from Jamaica, New York and England, and then back to Jamaica?" You understan' what I mean? But you see, they're hiding something for me, because they have a tape for me. Yeah, they've got a tape which belongs to me, a tune called 'Please Don't Let Me Do Something Bad To You', and the B-side of it is 'Rolling Stone'. Because I record that in Canada. Yeah, I did record that in Canada, and I called him about it. So I sent him a cassette-tape, right, so I had a month's break. Because I was a club... was to open, there was a new club open and I opened the club. So I brought it back here, when I give it to him, and it was a boom. It was a big song, it was a big hit. But they never do no promotion, innit. I only leased him the tape for a period of time, for him to return it back, and up till this day he haven't returned it. And every time I ask Carl for that tape there he says to me that Harry took it over. "So why Harry want to take over my tape for and Harry's not in the record business?" You understan' what I mean? So, I need my tape, I say that "My tape is at your house". I say, "At your house, I need my tape, and if you don't give me...". You understand what I mean? "Every time I hear this tape, it's gonna be trouble between you and me, it's gonna be trouble". Because, they hold on to people's things and don't want to return it back, right. They had it, I did a deal with him for... it was for three years and a two year option. Yes? Three years and two year option. For two years only, if things were working out between us, then he can have it for - but I would've to resign for that option. Which I did not, because things wasn't workin' out. Yeah. And for all them time, I did this from 1980, if I count that right that's twenty odd years now, you see. And they won't give me me tape! So I just said to them, I sez "Anywhere I go and I hear the song, which is unprohibited for you people to do any business with, it's gonna be a big thing. It's gonna be a big thing, because I'm gonna call down all the papers on you people", y'understan'? I say, "Anytime I see it, any time, any time..." - because I say I'm all over the place, they know. So any time you hear, any time you see it, just send me a copy. 'Cause if they do any deal with it, they gonna hear from me. I'm tellin' you, I'm not joking. They're very dishonest people. When Harry was around, I think the business fall in a different direction since Harry Palmer comes out of the business. Q: What do you mean, more specifically? A: Harry Palmer was - he was more honest than his brother.

Q: The one who runs Jet Star now? A: Yeh, well, it's the same Palmers them, y'know. Same Palmer, they only change the name to Jet Star, right. So he runs the company but with others, because he have white people in it too, y'know. It's not just them alone. For it to be this large, y'know, there's back-up, right. And he's not a very honest man at all, you have to go through too much hustle to collect your pennies. It's like someone washin' a piece of clothes and they wash it and they put it on the line and when it dry, when you get that little money you can see through it, like glass. Q: (Chuckles) A: You understan'. When they owe and they're supposed to pay at time, they give you all kind of a back-shop business, like come back tomorrow, come back next week, come this and come that, come back this and come back that. Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow... Because I tell you, the other week we had a big, big, big argument down that place there (chuckles). Yeah, because the way he was doing things it wasn't right, and I had to really let people know what it's made of. It was big, a big argument down there. It was really (chuckles)... it's for somebody else to tell you 'bout the man, but I'm tellin' you what went down. But it was big because they were taking liberty, they were taking liberty, so what I had was to put that little stop of it too, to stop that kinda thing. Because the thing about me, when I go into the studio to work, I put my heart and soul in whatever I'm doing and the meaning in what I'm doing, and just go in the studio and spend hours and hours. And sometimes when you go to the studio, you don't come out till the next morning. And to see you do all them things and prepare the record, and they give you... and they want it, they ordered it. Because when you take - when you finish the record, then you take a copy of the tape and say to Mr P: "This is what I have coming out" and thing like that, rey rey rey. Then you start doing your orders, when they get the orders and you get it on the term, they make that term passes and then it comes into the next term and the term will pass, and it comes into the next step. And it's very aggrovated to, y'know, really go through that system with these people. I did a very good album for them, I did a very... before the whole scenario, an album called 'True Vibration'. Q: That was a nineties album. A: Mmm, have you got that album over there? Q: No, never seen it here. A: Now, it's a blue - a blue cover, and it's about 199-... around '96. Q: Right, I thought so, mid nineties anyway. A: Yeah, around there, around '96.

Q: How did you feel about Pama's attempts at crossover, the smooth slushy, type of MOR stuff with strings, aimed at the BBC when reggae was still looked upon as a novelty kind of music and still kind of innocent and raw, wasn't it? A: Well, they made a few records with strings in it, because I did a couple of songs that they put strings in it, one called 'Sugar Dumpling'. That was a Sam Cooke, a Sam Cooke song. Q: Right, right. A: And also a next one called 'Don't Sign The Papers'. Q: (Chuckles) What was that one about, your deal with Pama? A: (Chuckles) No, it's an American song, y'know. Yeah, I forgot the artist, but I have the original, because I brought that from New Orleans. I got it from New Orleans, 'Don't Sign...' - it's gotta do with the man and his wife, y'know, and they were on divorce (chuckles), they were gettin' divorced an' t'ing like that. And like they go into court, before they go in there he says that he still loves her and blah blah, whatever, wherever, and he says 'Don't sign the papers baby, I still want you back...'. (Chuckles) You know? It's a funny way how people always write songs, innit. You gotta be natural, y'know, if you gonna do it you do it naturally. It's great, it's great. I've done a lot of them for Pama. Q: Especially during that late sixties era. A: During the sixties, yes. I just had a new one out called 'Baby It's You', because I'm workin' with Wordsound Records right now, Bill Campbell. Q: Right, B&B, he's been a stalwart on the UK scene for the past thirty years or so. A: The B&B Campbell, I've been workin' with him for a few years now, it's not that bad really, y'know. Not bad. 'Cause he was the first to really take me to Brazil. Yeah, he was the first to take me there, to get me to Brazil. Because I had a hit over there, was a hit. The way that songs and records come together, a simple little song I was just chantin' on a riddim in the studio with me and Clem Bushay. Q: The producer. A: You hear 'bout Bushay? Q: Yes, man behind Bushays, or the Bushmaster label. A: Yes, well, that's the one, that is the one. You know, we done with what to do and he was playing some riddim and I just start a tune called (scat-sings) 'Ah a-a-a-ah, when you see me now, come mek we shake it, when you see me now, I want you to shake it...'. You know? It's just simple, it's simple. Because I just took words from my... the one that I did there, called 'Shook, Shimmy & Shake', y'understan' what I mean, I just pass away some of the words them and dabble it in there and it become big in Brazil. It become big in Brazil. Yeah man, it was big there. Yeah. Because the reggae city in Brazil, well, it's two cities which is more reggae... one is in Sao Paulo, and Sao Luis. That is the reggae, Sao Luis. That is the reggae city, Sao Luis, I'm tellin' you. It's nice down there.

Owen Gray

Q: Right, you told me last time we spoke a little about your adventures in Brazil. A: Oh, it is great, just a nice little city, man. No hustle, no hustle whatsoever. You go to the beach any 24/7, man. And business is going on on the beach road there 24/7, and it's cheap. And the food is good, good cookin', because they've got very good cookin'. Oh yes, very good cookin'. I enjoy their meals, I enjoy the meals, and I enjoy the weather, I enjoy the beach. Because like on Sundays you don't need to cook - you have a family, yes, and that Sunday you don't need to cook, you just take you and your family and you go to the beach. And you name the food, they're there! And you're gettin' the music from end to end, because it's like this beach, you look at it and it's like this beach is like a never ending, y'understan', it's neeeever endin', and it's relaxin'. No one is coming to give you the feel that Sao Luis is, but Sao Paulo is bad, some part is (chuckles) bad, bad, bad, bad. It's nice, Sao Paulo is nice, but some part of Sao Paulo is a bad city. The city that I don't like, that I'm not really too-too crazy about, or enthused about, is a city called Fortaleza. And Fortaleza is a big city, it's a money city, but you know for every country on this planet of the world has got its ghetto. Every single country in this world on this planet has got a ghetto. But sometimes when you say to people about ghettoes them feel sez, well, it's only poor people are living in the ghettoes and the poorest of the poorest people they live in the slum, which is shanty town. Shanty town is a different from the ghetto... Q: One of them is more 'organised'. A: No, the ghetto is more organised, but the shanty town is more unorganised. Because that's where the slums are, isn't they? That's where some people can only put up a little hut with canvas or cardboards and... Q: Zinc fence. A: And the dirty waters and whatever, whatever and wha'ever. We had a little discussion one night, me and some people a few weeks back now, and I said to them that every country has a ghetto, right. So they was talkin' like Dubai, I said "Dubai has got ghettoes!" So he looked at me and say, "Who told you that Dubai has it?" And he looked at me and said I'm arguing, and I said "I'm not arguing, I tell you that Dubai's got them ghettoes". He said no, if I've ever been to Dubai. He say, "Have you ever been to Dubai and where about in Dubai did you go to, to come and to tell me that it's a ghetto in Dubai?" Every country in every corner of this planet have got its ghetto, y'understan' wha' I mean? Yeah man, the ghettoes them has to be there, is not everybody rich, is not everybody rich in Dubai. I've been to Beirut, Tel Aviv, Persia, the whole a them places, Teheran... ghettoes, ghettoes, ghettoes. All around them Arab countries you have ghettoes. I've been down to Kuweit, all them places, ghettoes you have, yeah? But, you see, until you see the thing, until you go to the place and see, then you can talk. But don't talk of hearsay, he was tellin' me oh, he's waitin' on his girl callin' and he's gonna ask her if there's any ghettoes in Dubai. But it was just a big show-off, because he's got no girl that is in Dubai. Just a big show-off, you know these mouth-piece people. Especially if them got two lickle couples in them pocket to shake about, man, they don't like you talkin', they don't know nutten. But there are places with people I still would like to go to, reading about and seeing them on the map, when I see them on television, y'know, some of these countries I would like to really go into. It's all about gettin' there and being there, being there and gettin' there, that's what it's all about. Most naturally you've seen it, you have your own impressions. You say OK, this is what I've seen on television, this is what I've been reading about in papers and things like that, right. But at least I've come to see it. And I've seen it, so I can jack it down, I can take photograph, whatever, y'know, whatever.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)