Q: Back to the music now. You were about to do an album for Dandy Livingstone in London back in '68 or so, can you recall that at all? A: For Dandy Livingstone? No. Q: No? A: No. Q: Wrong facts I got then (apparently this project came to a halt and the few tracks that had been laid ended up on a Trojan LP by Dandy's Brother Dan All Stars). A: Never did. Q: Should've been circa '68. A: No, no. Noooo, no, no, no. Why should I want to do an album for Dandy Livingstone in 1968? No, no, no. Q: OK, OK (laughs)! A: (Chuckles) Someone has the wrong end of the stick, man. Q: Right, right, I see. A: Someone has the wrong end of the stick, because '68 I was still with Pama. Q: So you never worked that year with Dandy, huh? A: In '68 I was with Pama, we was supposed to do an album, but it never reached no further than word of mouth. Q: That was about it. A: And songs on that in the early '68/69/70 that Pama had, there could be a compilation album, an album out of it. But they never do it, because they start movin' up now.

Dandy Livingstone

Q: The following year you did an album for Trojan, 'Reggae With Soul' in '69. A: 'Reggae With Soul'? Q: Yes, an LP for Trojan. A: No, it was me and Clem Bushay who does it, we did a deal with Trojan. They didn't put up the money for it, is we who put up the money for it, is we who done it. And then we do the deal, we lease it to them, for Trojan, but Trojan didn't... you know? Q: Push it. A: (Sighs) There was a guy in the earlies... Q: Lee Gophtal? A: No, no, no, not Lee... (sighs) oh, don't call that name sometime, boy (chuckles). Makes the ears scratch... makes my ears scratch (laughs)! Q: He's gone now though. A: (Chuckles) That man... oooohhhh lord, he's gone so let's forget about him, y'know, he... oohhh boy. And that man let a lot of artists get some big money on here, y'know. But he has to get fe him pitch, he has to be pitched out of it too (chuckles). Yeah. Because when he left Trojan then he...

Lee Gopthal

Q: You mean when Trojan went bankrupt in '75? A: Yes, true, when Trojan... because he - but the thing about that, he was the one that controlling most of the artists them. Because B&C Music, y'understan', he was the one! Because John Holt make a hit, Ken Boothe make a hit, Dandy Livingstone make a hit, Nicky Thomas - because they was down at Trojan, yeah, Pioneers and a few more artists. Yeah? But what I heard - this is what I heard, I don't know because I wasn't with Trojan them times, y'know, right, I never with Trojan them times, but I had a friend going there. But Chips Richards - you know Chips? Q: He used to run Sky Note, the UK branch of Mrs Pottinger's High Note label at the time. A: Yes, yes. He used to promote the records them in Trojan. Q: Like a 'record plugger'? A: He was the A&R (i.e. 'Artist & Repertoire'), he was a promoter, he promotes the record. Everything that Trojan has, he has something to do with it. He was the upfront man, because he's educated about them things, you see. Yeah? And he was the upfront man. Now, when I did 'Natty Bongo' now for Bunny Lee in Jamaica, that comes in the chart. Yeah man! Yeah, because that was heading up, that was headin' up, it was heading for... And the same, when it came to 36, when it was 36, that's when Trojan goes bankrupt! Yeah, when it came to 36, when it's number 36, that's when Trojan went bankrupt.

Q: Right, sometime in 1975. A: 1975, yes! Because I just came back from New Orleans too, I just came back from New Orleans. I just came back from New Orleans, and I sat... I sat at home when he first told me that. By the time I was living in North London, Hamhurst Road, Hamhurst Road I was living in London in them times. Q: What area is that? A: Stoke Newington. Q: Right, right. A: Stoke Newington, and when I opened the door, I saw Chips, and he came in. And he just throw himself up, y'know. I said "Say it again?", and he said, "Boss, sorry, Trojan bust it". Just like that, said Trojan had bust it. He said, "Boss, Trojan gone bankrupt". And he had lost a lot of money in it, y'know. Q: Invested personally a lot of his own capital. A: Yeah! Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, I'm tellin' you (chuckles), he had lost a lot! He had lost a lot of money, because each month he used to put a certain amount of his pay back in the company, y'understan' what I mean. And it got busted, got busted. But that's how life goes. Q: And Gopthal was out of the business after this? A: Mmmm, then he left and he went and he started with Blue Mountain. I just don't know, I just don't know how that man get himself in this, but he talked his way in! Q: OK. A: (Chuckles) Because they used to be in the West End, off... is it Brook Street, is it Brook Street or...? One a them, one a them streets off - when you go Park Lane, and it's a street whe you have a petrol station right at the corner, Park Lane on that street, that's where they used to be. And he get himself in there, and still he gets artists! Because even myself, even myself did do some signing. But after, he still - I heard that, y'know, a lot of money an' all them t'ing deh, they just... you know? He wasn't an honest man at all. Q: How was Gopthal on a personal level to deal with? A: Well, the thing about it, not superficial, but when someone say something to me, all I have to know is don't promise me - do the damn thing, y'understan'. I said: "Don't promise me, don't want no promises, I never come in this world under no promises". For that never put me under no promises, if you gonna do, you do it! If you can't do it, just say you can't do it! Or you just tell me sez, 'I'll try, I'll try my best'. But don't say 'I promise that I will', because I'm not going for that, I'm not going for no promises. Because my life is not made upon no promises at all.

Owen Gray, circa 1975 (photo: Dennis Morris)

Q: A promise won't put any bread on your table, highly unlikely in most cases, isn't it? A: You cannot do that! You can't do that, you can't put bread on the table. Q: Have to be something concrete. A: You can't have them promise you, because you can't make your stomach feed nice with promises. Q: True. A: Because when you can't keep to that promise, you only make yourself looks a fool. Because, if you tell the person 'Oh, I'm gonna promise you and I'm gonna promise and promise', y'know, it's just that. But all those people that was workin' in Trojan and all they do was just grab, grab, grab, grab, grab and grab! And they don't care what they grab, they just grab. They don't care who gets hurt, they just grab. But Father was watchin' them very closely, Father was watchin' a few of them very, very closely. Very, very closely He was watchin' them, because He knew what a few of them were doing was wrong. I wrote a song... y'know, I don't know if you remember, if you've heard a song called 'You Take Away Everything'? Q: Yes, you did that for the Jamatel label. A: For Shelly. Q: Right, Count Shelly, a subsidiary to his Third World imprint. That song served as an attack on a few of those people in the business at the time ('75) I think? A: (Chuckles) That was - and funny enough, yunno, it's not no one special that I written that song about really, is just situations. Q: Yeah, but there was some sort of intention with it, in whatever direction to whoever, a 'certain record company person' as it was told in a review that year. A: Yeah, because Lee Gopht- (chuckles)... when Lee Gopthal heard that song, he called me. Q: Mmm. A: He sez, "The song that you made for Shelly, it's about me?"

Q: (Chuckles) A: I sez, "Why you have to ask me if my song is about you?" I say, "I wasn't even thinkin' about you when I written the song". But I said, "Who the cap fit, let them wear it". Q: Exactly. A: (Laughs) Q: And it hit home. A: (Still laughing) He didn't like it, because the part of it that he's concerned is when I sez: 'How they love sit on their high horse and gives instruction, don't care about no one at all, they are full of corruption, how can a man like you survive after all you've done...', y'understan' what I mean? So that was part of it, when he hears that part, when he heard that part there, 'How can a man...', yeah? 'You take away, you take away your children's bread and leave them hungry...', that I wrote. Them words, hoooo hoooo ooohhh (laughs)! Q: Why wasn't that one included on your recent Trojan double CD set? Should've been a good addition to it, as I believe this one is regarded as one of your better recordings from that period. A: No. Because the thing about it, we did include... Q: Nope, it wasn't. A: No we didn't, no we didn't... we didn't, we didn't. Q: Next time, next anthology hopefully. A: That tune deh a selective tune (chuckles). It's like 'Rizzla', that song there was supposed to go with 'Rizzla'. Them kinda album, y'understan' what I mean? Yeah, that kinda...

Count Shelly Soundsystem

Q: During the sixties, you were still frequently travelling between London and Jamaica, keeping up with the homegrown music. A: Oh yes, oh yes. I mean, going back and forth, back and forth, in and out, in and out. Various different countries in this world, back and forth to Jamaica. 'Cause I went back when Independence was, because I came here 1962. Jamaica became independent in August, coming back, me myself, Jackie Edwards and Millie Small. Well, Millie Small didn't out here, she didn't come here before '64, when she made 'My Boy Lollipop'. Q: Right, you told me about that last time, her 'new found stardom attitude' and all this business. A: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh... You see, the thing about it, the thing about it my friend, is that people comes and people goes. The longest liver sees the most, isn't it? And I've seen the most, I've seen the most. I'm not rich, but I'm rich at heart. The greatest rich is health - life! Q: Of course. A: The greatest rich is life! When you have life, and you have your health, they can do all (inaudible). Don't let someone - because I mean, talk about being old, when you are old you cannot do nothing more for yourself, you become dependent upon other people to do for you. That is when you're old. You reach a page of age, you reach a stage of age and can get around, and move about, and move with confidence and conviction, y'know what I mean? Conviction, you moves and people see you moving around and sez (whispers) "Bwoy, oh bwoy, them old man him move fast, look how the man look nice". Nobody would realise my age. I'll be doing what I'm doing, especially on stage, because I like that. I just don't like to go up to the mic and stand, I like dancin', you see. Because when I came to this country, right, I took drama from Jamaica, and I came up and finish up musical drama here - a place called Get Musical Drama Black Harry (?), that knows about stage craft. It's like a boxer know of ring craft, how to move around the ring, to escape punches, t'ings like that. So, I know about stage craft, I know how to distance from the mic, how we use the mic, the distance from sound, how you gonna take the high notes, how you gonna take the low notes, or how you breathing. You breathe from the waistline comes up and the chest goes out. So I've learned all, I've learned all techniques. I'm not calling myself the greatest, but I know I'm great writing songs, I know I'm great on stage. People out there still respect me. In every walk of life you have good and bad, y'understan', so... I'm not puttin' down nutten, I'm not putting down no one, I just do my stuff. I just do my stuff, I do what is best, what people know me best at, right. What people knows, what I can do. Because, as I said to you, I'm also doing gospel. Q: Right, right. A: But the record business now, it takes a turn. Because it has changed from vinyl to this technology; CD and DVD and whatever else there is, it takes a turn, a terrible, terrible, terrible turn! It turned to a degree, this record business turned at a degree that, yes, y'know making a couple of bucks an' t'ing like that, an artist from Jamaica get... But it takes a turn, because the people who does know how these things was made - because they're not at the studio to see what take place, how it has been done, and all they do is go and buy a burner. They buy one, or they make it through a friend, one CD and they make hundreds of pounds off the one CD. And what they does, sellin' it for less and lesser money, five pounds! That's what they're doing! Q: Bootlegging, right. A: Even DVD, even DVD they're sellin' for five pounds! When you go to the distributor to collect your money, they're tellin' you sez, well, the record is not selling and... you never give them some of the records, we don't pack them up with too much records sez, well, you have such and such a time to pay us this money. You have to pay part of the money first, it cuts the expense down. Well, I got fed... Anyhow, I love the music, I love my music, just like how I love my family, just like how I love my woman. You know, just how I love my family and my kids and grand children and my mom and dad. 'Cause my mom is gettin' closer to the final part, she's ninety now. Q: Down in Jamaica? A: Oh yes, yes. She was living in America for a period of time, but she went back now. She wanted was to go home and finish her time in the sun, proper sunshine (laughs)! Q: (Laughs) A: Yes (laughs)!

Allen Toussaint

Owen Gray

Q: What happened to this deal you got with Island Records back in 1972 I think it was, they had some sort of marketing idea of making you into a New Orleans R&B-type singer at the time, what became of that? A: Yes, yes, I went. Q: To do the crossover kind of thing, dressing you up in a R&B/soul-pop costume to compete with Jimmy Cliff or whatever. A: Yes, it was '74. Q: OK. A: Yes, '74 I went to New Orleans, late '74, because I came back '75. Was late '74, because I made an album down there. Q: So Blackwell wanted you to move away from reggae, that you had your future in R&B? A: No, it was for Island, they're the one that sent me down there. They are the one, Chris Blackwell is the one who arranged for me to go there. Q: Who did you work with over there? A: To be honest, I forgot the musicians in the main... I forgot them. I have them on a piece of paper, I forgot them but it's nice, oohhh... Q: Allen Toussaint producing? A: Eh? Q: It was Allen Toussaint in the producer's chair? A: Yes! That's... yes! Yeeesss, yes, yes.

Q: He was highly regarded in those days, still is. A: Yes, yes - definite. Definite, definite, definite. Those were there, yeah. Yeah, they're lovely, them people nice, man. Those people nice, man, niceness. And there's another studio, they called it Studio In the Country, it was owned by a 23 year old youth. I think he's coming from (inaudible), but it's a big place, that place. And people, the recording artists used to take their kids there, because it was playgrounds there, it was a beautiful place, man. But that's the place I did the record, that's a nice studio too, y'know. That's where I met this guy, Lee Dorsey, the one who sing 'Holy Cow' (chuckles). Whenever I see that man, every day and so on, because every day he come to the studio - every day, right, he looks like a singer in the early fifties called Rosco Gordon - same features, same eyes, same hairstyle. So I've been saying to myself 'I wonder if it's Rosco Gordon changing name to Lee Dorsey?' Because that guy could sing blues, he sing some wicked blues. He sing a tune called (sings) 'No more doggin', no more runnin' around...', y'understan' what I mean (chuckles)? Them guys, great! Those guys great, man, great, great. I've met some nice people, great people too, good people and even bad people. The more interest is in the good people. Q: Of course. What became of the Island album? Just parked it, left it on the shelf? A: That album that I did for Chris Blackwell? It hasn't released yet, it never. Q: How come? A: There was this A&R guy, yes, when I came back... Q: There was just a couple of 45's issued from those sessions? A: No, they haven't. Q: Not even that? A: No, not one, not even one. There was this A&R guy workin' with Island at the time, and Chris Blackwell told him to give me a copy of the tape, yes? And I didn't receive it! Yes, Chris Blackwell told him to run a copy and give to me, but he didn't give me. And a few months after, some months after I heard that he had been sacked! For what reason I don't know, I never go through to ask, y'know, I never go through there to ask but I was told this. But that album hasn't been released. And since I left Island I've been trying to see Chris Blackwell and I can't see Chris Blackwell. And Chris Blackwell is in Jamaica still, and I've been to Jamaica so much time. I go to Heineken show, a show called Heineken Startime, I've done it an' t'ing like that, and I never get a call from Chris Blackwell. I cannot see Chris Blackwell, I don't know wherever, y'understan'. So these are the... you know? But that album, I don't know the reason why these people keep up these kind of things. What they are waiting for is when - it's after the death of the person before they do these things. That's a very nice album.

Owen Gray (Photo courtesy Vintage Boss)

Owen Gray (Photo courtesy Vintage Boss)

Q: The attempt was to do a kind of fusion between reggae and the New Orleans sound, R&B and reggae mixed together, it was those type of ideas floating around? A: No, no, no, no - is soul, it's a soul album. Something different completely from reggae, soul album. Because I had a song - well, I wrote a few songs on it anyway, because there's a major song that I've written called 'Mr Sun'. Very nice song, very very nice song. And a next one called 'She's Making Up To Break Us Up'. Q: Have you done any of those songs from that unreleased album as reggae, like transformed them afterwards? A: No, no, no. Q: For contractual reasons, they simply own everything of that so you can't touch it? A: No, no, no - I can do it, I'm not on a contract to nobody, not on a contract to nobody. Q: Yes, I didn't mean it as that but... A: No, I can do it because they can't stop me from do it. Q: Good. A: They cannot stop me from do it. Island or nobody can't stop me from do it, if I wanted to do all of them songs in reggae or whatever, they cannot stop me from doing them. They don't have that power, they haven't got the power to stop me from do that. That's all there is to it, they ain't got the power to stop me from doing that.

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