Article : Prince Hammer.

Q: Where did you get that name 'Gold Cup' from? Like from a deejay competition at the time, I seem to remember there was one of those in Kingston, a competition, it was named Gold Cup as well, right?

A: No, it was just something that come to my head, y'know, and a Gold Cup is something that everybody would like to win! You know, so I think that would've given my label a good chance.

Q: (Chuckles)

A: Because if you run... because as a youth all I wanted was like to be a athletic type of person, and so on, in sports and all type a t'ings, which I never get a chance to. So this give me a chance now to build a label called 'Gold Cup', y'know what I mean (laughs)! So I did that.

Q: Right, a connection to sports.

A: Yeah.

Q: You set up a shop on your own at this time too.

A: Yes.

Q: Where was it located?

A: That was on Orange Street and it was called 'Prince Hammer Records'. But then I had a friend like Prince Far I, and Prince Far I didn't have anywhere where he could be like distributing his songs from and so on, and he ask me permission if he could kind of, like, join up with me. And I said OK, yes, then I change up the name of the shop from 'Prince Hammer' to 'Prince & Prince Records'.

Prince Hammer.

Q: How long did the shop last?

A: That shop was there for about - maybe for about a year and a half, or maybe two years, somet'ing like that. And the reason why the shop went down and never really worked, it was workin', it was doing fine, but because I was gettin' like a lot of contacts from abroad, everywhere, coming there, y'know, letters from fans, etcetera, etcetera. But I came to England and did a tour with Adrian Sherwood...

Q: Yes, we're coming to that.

A: OK. But when I went back to Jamaica, when I went back to Jamaica, the bailif people - because I had a sound system box outside, and this massive, loud speaker, y'know those big panny (?) type of a speaker, yeah? And that was a upstairs/downstairs place, and downstairs it would have to be a big 15"-inch box, and upstairs I have got this massive speaker blaring straight up Orange Street (laughs)!

Q: (Laughs)

A: And...

Q: How about the neighbours (chuckles)?

A: Well, they didn't mind anyhow, because Jamaica is what it is, innit, and it's all about music, innit (chuckles)?

Q: Right.

A: And I wasn't disturbing what wasn't disturbing enough to really get thrown out or anyt'ing like that, and I was paying my bills and everyt'ing, and so on, so I think I was OK there. But when I came over here, when I came over here to do some pieces of business - to England, and when I went back to Jamaica, Prince Far I didn't pay the rent, because I had another guy in there called John Dread who... what I did, I was manager/director of the place, Prince Far I was like manager, and John Dread was like foreman. But Prince Far I did not pay the rent, he wanted was to like take money from the business and John wouldn't let him take the money from the business, y'know, John Dread wouldn't let him take any money 'No, no, no - no money cyaan move from this place 'til Prince Hammer come!' And the rent never pay, etcetera, and when I went back to Jamaica, there's some Bailey's people, y'know, receiver people went to my place, and took my speakers and with some pieces of things that they took from there. Because what I tried to do, I was trying to turn that place into, like, different section of business. You know, one section was gonna be like a bar, y'know, we have a section which was a record shop section, and there's an office section, and there was another section whe I wanted was to turn into harbodashery (9-11 style) type of a t'ing, where we sell like crackers, plates, spoons and cups an' anyt'ing to do with utensils, etcetera, etcetera.

Q: For the household, yeah.

A: Yeah. So I was trying to divan this place to a big standard, on the steps, coming up the staircase, on each step there's an artist name on each one of those steps coming right up the staircase, that's the way I designed the place. On the inside of it, it would've been Alphabet, y'know, like A, B, C, one, two, three - mathematics, and all these type a t'ings on the wall. Because, where the shop was is a part of the community where most of the people come to take buses, like the kids them when they leave school in the evening, they have to take bus right outside my business place. And that would've given them a chance to still keep their knowledge going by coming into my shop, once they come in there it's still educational for them! So that's why I designed the inside of the shop that kind of a way, for when they came inside the brain would be still kickin' over watchin' all these type of a mathematics on the wall and these kind of a English literature on the wall, etcetera. So that's the way I designed it. But with these people coming to my shop and taking things from my shop, I was really really down. My pride, y'know, really just went. Because I'm a proud person, very very proud. And to know that people come into my shop and took things the way they did, I just smashed the place up, call in people from outside the street and tell them to take what they want from the shop. And I just smashed up an' give away and throwing away things an' shut down the place and called it a day with that. 'Cause I was pretty annoyed with the fact that my business was going so good, yet other people that I was dependin' on was to help develop this place, the person that I've given a chance to help develop my business, y'know, let me down. So I wasn't happy with it at all, I just said 'goodbye' to the business there. But still continue making my records, pressing 7"-inch singles, with a bag on my shoulder, with my bike, riding from record shop to record shop and jus' dropping off records all over the community in Kingston.

Q: Such a shame it went that way, because becoming independent and producing your own stuff, you either need an outlet like a sound system or a record shop, as a reliable outlet for the records.

A: Yes, that's one of the reason why I develop my shop, because that would've given - as I said to you before - I was gettin' a lot of fan-mails from Germany, all over the place, people gettin' to know the shop writin', askin' to send them stuff, etcetera, all different type a record. Whatever they can't get anywhere, they would've to call us and ask us to maybe get these records for them and post it, mail it back to them, which we used to do. We used to get mail in the post from people, you understan', because, remember, England was one of the biggest outlets for reggae music still inna those days as much, right. Germany was not as big but they was pickin' up a lot, Holland was another place that was really doing well. America was like 'uh-uh, uh-uh' type of a like a on-and-off type of a t'ing, it was just trying to get to know the music, y'know, America. So it was chance for everybody who wanted was to get to know the music, there was a chance for them to really get to know us, for us to get to know them, for them to get the chance to understan' what we doing, and why we do what we do. So we was gettin' fans, people - beca' in those days a lot of tourists used to come to Jamaica, because it wasn't really over the board with political violence or anyt'ing like that, and so on, so there was a lot of tourist jus' walkin' up an' down locally, in the community - everywhere! And these people would've come to my shop, and people would've introduced other people and tell other people when they go back to their own countries.

Q: How did they take off, the Gold Cup records? To get a seller you need space in the media, and radio was crucial as a platform to establish a new record. But you had a lot of hustle with 'payola' - the 'pay-off' system - in Jamaica in those days, didn't you?

A: It wasn't like that. In truth, right, in Jamaica, you could just go to the radio stations those days, yeah, and leave your records at the desk, ask them to give it to this DJ or that DJ, whoever it may be, somebody you might recognise or admire, and you'd listen the radio and you'd guaranteed you'll hear your song. Is not like you would have to go and pay these people money for these people to play your records, but that was happening as much. People would pay people to get their music plugged as many times as possible. So for a young guy like me, a young producer and a young entertainer coming up in this business, I've learned what door to go through by askin' questions from bigger people, like people like Gregory Isaac, and I've learned a lot through these people. So, yes, you could've gone through radio station them times, and you would've given the people the records there, and they would've played them. Now it's a lickle bit different, because now a lot of people are trying to get their record played on the radio now, but most people would have to pay. But still they do the same thing now, they still play your records without even that you pay any financial to get it played on the radio. Because if a record is good in Jamaica, once it start play on the sound system, in the dancehall, these people will have to take it up and play it. They've got no choice, you see. So it's not like in England, this country, where you have to go to like Radio One and all these places and so on, they would have to listen to all your songs, like put it all in category A, B, C, these songs play ten times of the day, this one only play two, this one only play once. It doesn't work like that in Jamaica. You can go and you can see somebody and you can get your things played and you can get a few things a play on the radio, and you can get as much play on the radio, independent of what kinda relationship and what your label is really doing.

Mikey Dread.

Q: Who used to play your stuff back in those days?

A: You used to have like Mikey Dread - 'Dread At The Control'.

Q: Right, JBC as it was known as back then (since the eighties an amalgamation with RJR), the first really serious (reggae) music program in JA.

A: Yeah (laughs)! He was the top guy, and he was a community guy too. You know, I could've gone to him and said, well, 'I've got this record, yunno'. I gone up to BBC Radio - sorry, to JBC Radio, and leave my records there for him to play, and he would've played it. But those days, it was different, different DJ's anyhow, and as I said to you before, these people would've played these songs. Because if you make good songs they will play them, that's how they do it in Jamaica. Once your song is very good and they admire you for what you are, or you got respect in the community, is no need for them not to play your song.

Q: But you did switch from the 'normal' type of deejay approach on 'Lord of Lords' for example, to an early kind of sing-jay style on 'Addis Ababa', how did you come up with this at the time?

A: Yeah. Because you used to have people like General Echo - you remember General Echo?

Q: Yes, he died. Used to be quite slack in his day.

A: He used to do a slacky music and all type a t'ing, right, we were very close too as much, friends, and he was doing very well them times. But what I wanted was to do, I wanted was to change the deejay style a bit, instead of doing the kind of a style of a deejay whe I used to do earlier on, I said I would've tried somet'ing different, and I've tried to move my tongue in a different position, to kinda get a different flow on the record itself, and that's how I come up with these styles. 'Cause I found meself - the reason why I did it, it was Techniques had a record shop on Chancery Lane, you remember Chancery Lane used to be called 'Idler's Rest'?

Q: Yes.

A: Right, and they and a sound system there once playing, and I went on the sound system, and I was really doing these type of a style, and them said 'wow, wow!' And everybody was like 'hey, hey, hey!' You know, it was somet'ing new to them all, y'know wha' I mean (laughs)? And that's where I developed that style from, you see. Because if there was any interest, I wouldn't have really, maybe, tried to do it anyhow. But because there was so much excitement about this style and the way how I was really doing my thing, everybody was happy for me doing it, and I was happy myself getting response from all these people. So I developed that stye for myself, and other people catch on from it then anyhow.

Q: If we speak deejays technically and otherwise, how would you define what's 'good' deejaying?

A: Uh, right. A good deejay, a good deejay is somebody who really write good lyrics, y'know, whe the lyrics really really have a good meaning, good understanding. Because you can chat anyt'ing, yunno, 'ey didley, the cow jump over the moon', etcetera. And some of these t'ings, they're just gimmickal, right, but in earnest, they're really - people take onto these people, because it's what they've been taught in school. But, if you really really wanna be a good deejay, you gotta write reality songs. You know, really good meaning about what life really give, what it's really entail, what life really mean, and that's what I think a good deejay is, writing about your lifestyle, about other people's lifestyle, about the sufferin' you go through. And not just sufferin', but all the good things you go through as much, your schoolin', etcetera. Because life is a very funny thing, and there's a lot of different words out there. But words have meanin', and they can be good meanin', and they can be stupid meaning. But then again, sometimes people don't just listen to the words of a song, they listen for just a instrument in a record, and they dance from the instrument itself. So in every song there is something that a person listen for, or look forward to, in a song. Because most of the songs now, once they go on the record table, just the introduction alone, you can know what the song is coming on, because there is something to give you a hint, say 'oh, that's that song'. You know, either a keyboard, a saxophone, maybe just a guitar sound, or maybe a drum roll or somet'ing, just to introduct the song. And you can say, well, 'oh yeah, I know which song is coming on next'. So to be a good deejay, you gotta write good lyrics, being constructive with yourself. If you wanna be gimmickal it's so good too, you understan', because at least you must be happy for really doing gimmick songs. And if you're happy doing that, then naturally you're a good deejay, because that's all yourself, that's how you feel yourself. You can only go by what your heart says to you. But I think the original deejays are the best of the deejays anyhow.

Q: Nowadays they just seem to go on a riddim and shout whatever they have to say, constructive or otherwise, and don't have much sense of what's beneath them, what is backing them. While the foundation deejays had often more sense of the feel, what was backing them, the rhythmic structure, the melody, in comparison.

A: Of the original? Yes, that's what I said to you before, if you listen the sound it's different, because you can choose the words properly, you can listen properly, you can catch the words very properly. Because all words were really put in the right position, or really take time to put on that record. With these deejays now, they're doing a lot of good, because I've listened to them and I'm very proud of them as much, very very proud. Because they're writin' some good songs these people, really really sit down and listen what they're writin', they're writin' a lot of good songs. But they have really diluted the record itself by doing these kind of a, like, slacky type of a music. You know, about women, about what they're doing to woman, and what they expect a woman to do to them, etcetera. And you've got to really - either you go back to your real self, because one of the time, yunno, they was talkin' so much about guns and all these type a t'ings on the record, that's in Jamaica the people them start to protest about it. And even in England, they wouldn't play the records them if they are talkin' about guns and all these type a t'ings, because it was really establishing a lot of bad people, it was makin' bad people. Because people adapt things, yunno, and you look up to a artis' for direction, an artist is like your mentor, somebody you put your trust into, your faith - your everything. You listen to this guy, yunno, 'this is my artist, man - whatever he say, that's what I do', y'know. And if you say good things, then they will follow good things. So that's why in those days, when the record was all about guns and guns and guns, gun this an' gun that, they would've, y'know - a lot of radio station, a lot of people in Jamaica say, 'Alright, c'mon, cut it out, cut it out!' Because it's not doing any good! It only created more war, because a lot of people would be getting hurt, because all you were talkin' about is really madness and badness. So people kinda try and changed their style, and they changed their style to girls, and talkin' about girls, girls, girls! 'Girls that, girls this, girls haffe do this to me, girls haffe do that to me', and it's really good in a some sense because, really and truly, all the girls them love it (laughs)! Because they're talkin' about them! So, if you talk bad about girls, they love it. If you talk good about girls, they love it. If you'd talk good about them, they'd love it, yunno. But if you notice like people like Buju Banton, he start off talkin' about girls, and he changed to reality. You know, more Christianity, more cultural, because that's the right way to go! If you read the bible, the bible's gonna tell you to do good. If you read like a fictional type of a story, it might be throwin' you a lot of stupid things about you, you can fly to the moon and all them type a t'ings, which you can't do. You can't just get up and just walk outside and say 'I'm gonna fly straight to the moon now!' It doesn't work, something's gotta take you up there. So you really gotta put your ideas right, which way you wanna go. But then again, every deejay can't be the same, beca' everybody singin' culture, if you want everybody singin' Christian lyrics, and so on, because there is wider market out there, and the market is more wider now for girl lyrics, for lyrics with girls. Even though it's changing a lot now, because a lot of people now do want to hear a lot more about culture. So the lyrics is changin' a lot now and a lot of these deejays now, they're singin' song about their mother, and say 'Mommy, I love you, thank you for takin' care of me, carrying me for nine months', y'know. 'I've got so much love for you, mommy, even though you die and you gone away, I miss you so much', all them type a t'ings, these are the type of lyrics that people are singin' now, which is more to the heart, more than just chattin' out of your head. Because you wanna make quick money. So it's more constructive lyrics now than diluted lyrics. Beca' if you dilute yourself, yunno, the drink will only taste a lickle all right, but if you put the right stuff to it, the right ingredients you put in it, you'll get the right taste. Now, a lot of the deejays now are changing their style. And then again now, is like the public themselves now changin' too as much. Because what they want now is the original lyrics from the seventies and the sixties, they're askin' for these records. These records are so much in demand now that every record company, or most record companies you're talkin' to now, they says 'have you got something from the sixties, have you got something from the seventies, have you an abum from that time?', etcetera. Because these are the records that's sellin' more now than the records that's making now, because everybody's saying the same thing now. Those days everybody was saying something a lickle bit different, you see.

Q: Different level of creativity, perhaps even 'higher'.

A: Yes.

Prince Hammer.

Q: But how did you get involved in the production of the 'Rockers' movie, what we spoke a little bit about earlier, you had a character, mainly playing yourself, in that film... how were you and the rest of the guys selected, what brought you into that project at the time?

A: Well, I used to live in Waltham Park area them times because I didn't move from the South Side and go to the West Side, and I meet up on some lickle kids, like some lickle community guys down there, guys like Ranking Toyan, Lickle John, Super Black, and even with 'Junjo' Lawes, Junjo - Henry Lawes, who's passed away now, he's deceased now, but before he even get involved with the music he was just a political guy, yunno. And he had a sound system in Jamaica an' everything, y'know wha' I mean. And so I moved to the west and my life start from there. It's like one day, because where I lived in the west, right, I used to live like near the Selassie I School, McKoy Lane, which is a really run-down part of the community, it's all zinc-fence, people used to like lease land, etcetera, there. But one day I used to be like use my money and try to help the community people round there, like try to build a lickle school for the kids them, and Lickle John was a part of my team, my school team. Like my babymother use to bring in these kids a evening time to the house, and we would a try to teach them the way how to spell or to read or to write and all them type a t'ings. There was a crippled boy too, y'know, used to be very crippled and used to drive himself, used to lift him up an' t'ing to the house, so he can learn. And one day I was on the McKoy Lane there which we was kinda just chillin' out, and a spirit just said 'You know somet'ing? Jus' walk down, go down to Randy's Record'. And me, Lickle John and Ranking Toyan, we all went down to Randy's Record, and I was like in full black, with a white tye, a neck-tye on, and my cap with my lickle dread them up, a stick out, and just the way how I walk... And when I walk into the record shop, there's the producer for the movie itself would be there. It was in Randy's record shop, would be Dirty Harry and Leroy 'Horsemouth' (Wallace), they was all in there. And just the way I was walkin', my walk, that's what gave me the movie, you see. When I walk in, the guy said,"Wow, who's that?" And Dirty Harry say, "Oh, that's Prince Hammer". And the producer said, "Listen, by the way how I see the guy walkin' there, man, I've got a part there in the movie for him". "Can you introduce him?" And they called me over and I was introduced to the producer, and they said, OK, can I come over to Sheraton Hotel the following day. You know, to have a talk about the movie and sign a contrac' paper, and that's what I did and that's how I got involved with 'Rockers' movie.

Q: How do you personally feel about that movie now, because I did speak to Kiddus I about it, and he was a bit disappointed how it turned out, the end result from that movie? It wasn't up to the expectations at the time, what they wanted to use that film for, which was to project what they were motivated by in the community, the surroundings, a better or more realistic view of the area and its people at the time. You disagree or you feel the same?

A: Yeah. You know somet'ing? Kiddus I is the man who should've picked up that movie in every aspect, yeah? Because I'm tellin' you somet'ing, right, 'Rockers' movie is one of the biggest movie ever to come out of Jamaica, one of the biggest movie ever coming from my country. And everywhere I go, especially like in England where I live right now, where I reside at the moment, there is almost in every house here, especially in this community I live into, have got 'Rockers' movie in it. Everywhere I go, people ask 'when is 'Rockers part 2' coming out?', because everyone here knew that I starred in the movie. That movie is like a icon-movie, everybody loved the movie, right. So Kiddus I is the man who should've said yes to that movie in every aspect, because he get the chance to sing that song. And that song is one of the biggest song in that movie, everyone listen to that song ('Graduation In Zion') or lookin' up to that song in that movie every time they watch that film. That movie is a movie that will never die. You know, it's gettin' more publicity more than 'The Harder They Come', in which Jimmy Cliff starred. So like I said, that film is like a icon to everybody. If you don't got that movie in your house, you've got no movie at all.

Q: (Chuckles)

A: And that's the truth, that's the God's truth. That's how I see it. And everybody see me in that walkin' about the community, sometime they see me, they say 'You know somet'ing, wha', I can see you're in 'Rockers', man', by the way how I walk. You know, is that, is just crazy (chuckles). It's not as 'Rockers' it seems.

Q: To be honest, I'm not quite sure who to pick of two guys in that movie, which one is you. Any particular sequence during the film which you could point to, because you've got a few there who have a pretty peculiar type of walk (chuckles)?

A: There is sections, because I've done a few parts in the movie, y'know, right, because there's a few parts that's cut out, because in the movie, I was like a bad boy in the movie. I was in the gang itself that gone and raid Bafaloukos house and so on, just as much.

Q: There is one sequence I can vividly remember where Leroy Smart knocks on the door-window or whatever it was, and there is somebody who suddenly come in from the other side, sneeking in on the young guy who open the door...

A: Yes, that's Dr Alimantado (sneeking in from the back-door). Dr Alimantado run up to the door and put a neck-hole on the guy, pull him down, open the door...

Q: And I figured if that could be you, the same sequence or fightin' scene where somebody is seen gnashing his teeth and kicking the guy...

A: That's me!

Prince Hammer in Rockers.

Q: The guy who have sunglasses on at night, so that's you. I figured that was you somehow, of those two (laughs)! Then we've 'solved' that.

A: The guy who step in his face when the guy was on the ground, I step in his face and the camera cut and just come straight to my face, just showing you the impression of what I was doing...

Q: Right, the same guy with shades on there and a black cap I think it was.

A: And then I kind of like stepped in his face type of a t'ing, and kinda ease my feet off. And there's another part where Gregory Isaacs and all those guys come to us, we was going on the move, like, yeah? And we were gamblin', I had on a kind of a orange colour pants and a posh shirt, a posh shirt simply meanin' it got lots of different colours. And meanwhile we were talkin' about going on the move, I was thieving the money. Those part were never write in the movie, I created those parts in the movie myself, and those were some of the biggest scenes ever speak about in the movie. You know, I was pitchin' the money and the guy said, "You, wha' you do with the money them kinda way deh!" Kinda box offa me an' t'ing like that, yunno, beca' I have a lickle touch here an' there. And then Dirty Harry said, "Ah, c'mon then me man, man haffe come fe bigger t'ings than that yu know me brethren, wha' yu a deal with?", y'know (chuckles), them type a t'ings, yeah? But... If you really check the movie now, we weren't, as some people think, we weren't doing any badness at all. It's from the movie start until it complete, we weren't doing any badness. At the end of the day, we were just people who is in the recording business trying to reach somewhere in the business itself. And you find like, we were kind of, like, abused and robbed by the bigger producers who are in the business, that's wha' happened. You know? And that's why Leroy 'Horsemouth' he had such a bad time, and he always have to went out and try and sell his record himself by ridin' on the bike, from shop to shop, to try to make his money. Because the bigger people who we expec' to be there for us, to help us to develop our careers or develop what we're doing, these were the people who was taking from us instead of giving to us. And that's why the movie end up with us going back to these people's houses, taking things from them, and giving it back to the poor people.

Q: Right, that's the ending, the 'Robin Hood summary', so to speak (chuckles).

A: Yes. But there's another part in the movie, y'know, that part like, saying (sings): 'I'm like a steppin' razor don't you watch my size, I'm dangerous...', right, when we all gonna meet up, yeah?

Dirty Harry coming 'cross from Carib Theatre.

Prince Hammer flinging his hands up in the air.

Q: Right, to me that's one of the highlights during the film, everybody walkin' from wherever they live.

A: Yes, well, I was the second guy. Dirty Harry came 'cross from Carib Theatre...

Q: (Laughs) Yes, that one is hilarious - unforgettable walk!

A: You know, walk across the main street like that. Well, the second guy that came from the club, comin' down, walkin' down in full black, that was me.

Q: Yeah (laughs)!

A: Right, that's me. And I kinda walk and fling me hand up in the air type a t'ing, like, and so on.

Q: Stretching out, like.

A: Yeah. That's me that.

Q: (Chuckles) Oh gosh, I've gotta run it again soon, a bandulu VHS, been a while now.

A: And on the cover, I'm one of the first person, I think I'm either one of the firs' person on the cover or the second on the box at the moment now, 'cause I've been seeing a lot of it in England at the moment now, even a couple yesterday, I've seen covers around the place of 'Rockers', and I'm the first person on the box itself now - firs' from left.

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Article: Peter I
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