Q: He had like an electronics shop at that time when he went into the business? He hadn't been in the music before this?

A: No, because he was I think a soldier and he learned (to be a) technician in Cuba. You know, I think he was in the army and learned the technician t'ing in Cuba, so when he come back in Jamaica he used to fix radios an' dem t'ings deh. 'Ca sometime when he come to check his girlfriend you see lots of radios and dem t'ings, in the back of his van an' dem things. So he used to fix radios, and televisions and all... No, not television - radios. It mostly radios in them time deh I used to see him fix, y'know.

Q: But Gibbs never lived in Greenwich Town?

A: He had a girlfriend and eventually... No, he wasn't living there, he just used to come down there, yes.

Q: Gibbs was, like Bunny Lee, among this small group of independent producers who emerged in that time, so The Leaders were lucky in that sense to be recorded without having to enter audition for any of the majors, Coxsone, Duke Reid or Federal?

A: Yes, like how you did have Bunny Lee. But I think he was even in the music before Bunny Lee? Because I think Bunny Lee, I think is Tubby's or one of the man dem really start off Bunny Lee, King Tubbys or one of them people deh. Help start off Bunny Lee in the recording t'ing, I think so... I'm not sure but I know Joe Gibbs was I think before Bunny Lee, y'know? Beca' Bunny Lee is still a little older than me, but he is still younger than Joe Gibbs. Them times deh Bunny Lee used to love ride bicycle... and bike an' you know dem t'ings deh? Joe Gibbs was mostly a bigger man for us them times deh. So Joe Gibbs was in it before. But is like Joe Gibbs now he... I don't know, but is like Joe Gibbs more tek it a different way from Bunny Lee. Bunny Lee mostly... would just do some promoting with some artists. But Joe Gibbs used to have all a his record shops an' dem t'ings deh, y'know. Dem kinda way deh more, yunno? Yes...

Q: How much material did The Leaders record for Joe Gibbs? You didn't do too many songs?

A: No, I think we did three songs.

Q: But these weren't even released in Jamaica, they came out in the UK, except for one tune maybe?

A: Yes, because is one day I was in Jamaica, about a year ago, an' somebody from America send a cassette with me, with some of Joe Gibbs... some long time original songs dem an' I saw one that they call 'Musically', and 'Going Home'.

Q: Those were solo tracks, after The Leaders?

A: Yes (laughs)! 'Musically', yes.

Q: At that time, how was The Leaders received? Did you perform at song contests, at the theaters, etc?

A: No, no. Because we didn't do plenty shows. And them time deh we were really...

Q: The group never hit the charts, I guess? Having so little released for the local market.

A: Because he didn't really release those songs more, in Jamaica. It was England he released, him mostly used to release...

Q: Why? You ever found out why? Did he tell the group about the overseas releases?

A: Well, yes... he told (us) that it was released. And he even give us all royalties too. You know, so he was very good to us at the beginning. But mostly I find that... I dunno, but probably he had some contacts in England. Or probably it was easier... I dunno? But him personally, beca' he was a man like Tappa Zukie. 'Ca Tappa Zukie do that a lot. Didn't produce mos' a him songs in Jamaica, most a them (in) England and like Freedom Sounds an' them people deh. Used to have some promoter who used to do that. Some a them used to do that, under some means that was really wrong beca' when them do that sometime the artist in Jamaica don't even know what's happening. And some a dem might do it because them get contacts, but some a dem did it because the artist would never know what's happening.

Q: Yeah, behind the back...

A: Yees! So it was a two way t'ing, like. You know?

Q: And I suppose you personally didn't have any connection over in the UK who could check what was happening?

A: No! No, no, no... Them times deh, you don't know. Only Joe Gibbs was the man that really would give me the royalty for the first one time. One time him give me royalty one time (chuckles)! For the first one that he send to England, y'know (laughs)! But, even me, all a them songs like 'Bucket', 'Funeral', 'Bozrah', 'Daniel', 'Their Reward', all a them songs there, I never used to get money for them songs deh... no. This is long after now when Blood & Fire rereleased them lp you know why I get money from them. Most artists didn't used to get money from promoters in Jamaica them times deh, unless probably is all a bad man. You know, or the promoter might be afraid a you, or your gang. And when you an' your followers come an' shoot him an'... y'know? But ordinary people jus' like me we never used to get money. Plenty artists... majority, Ken Boothe, all a dem beca' they used to complain every day. Beca' we used to sit down by the beach every time an' every man talk his story what him go through. Some man seh "ya nah go a studio an' affa doa - a yu tune fe Duke Reid you know the man give a piece of red urn (?) an' a pack of crackers!". You know? Melodians an' all them man, like all Melodians and them man deh when them record fe Treasure Isle, is a pack of crackers! 'You've Caught Me Baby' an' all them tune deh, is a pack of crackers! And a piece of red urn, to share for themselves.

Q: And he built himself off of these songs! That's how it works...

A: Yes (laughs)! That's how it work still, y'know.

Q: So what happened then with The Leaders, you didn't reach anywhere with them?

A: Yes, beca' Milton really left Jamaica... and really went to foreign, y'know. And from them time deh he is living in foreign even all now, Milton Henry (known for his work with Lee Perry, Rupie Edwards and close association with Bullwackie in New York - P).

Q: In New York? Involved with Wackies and all that...

A: Yes... ah New York, you know. And I used to sing with a... I think after that he went. I think he used to sing with another group - I think it's The Sensations, or wha'? Another group... I don't remember the name a them. But he used to sing in another group too.

Q: Who was some of the other members of The Leaders at the time?

A: Ah, there was another one by the name of 'Soft' - Roy Palmer.

Q: Yes, he was later in the Freedom Sounds stable?

A: Yes, but he was the one that really... he and Milton Henry was - as me - really original as The Leaders. He was always living in Greenwich Town - that Roy Palmer, yunno? I used to live on Seaview Avenue and he would live on Central Avenue. Just one avenue apart, so... Every day I would be up at his home and even from the morning til night an' we would sit down round the back and we'd cook food and eat an' dem t'ings deh, me and him an' Milton, an we'd sing an'... you know dem t'ing, yeah man. And Melodians dem would come in because we yard deh on Central Road, plenty people used to come in that yard, yunno? Plenty artists, Toots & The Maytals, all a dem used to come in there.

Q: We know of the amount of singers emerging from Greenwich Farm in the seventies, but that area... would you name any bigger names coming from the area in the sixties?

A: Man like Slim Smith... yes, that is an original. Lloyd Charmers, yes. Beca' him used to sing with The Flames. Yes, Charmers... Flames, yeah man. Them was the main artists that I really used to listen to. 'Ca them was some bigger man, an' we used to listen to them artists deh. Laurel Aitkens, Blues Busters... Them times deh, I used to remember as a likkle yout', 'ca used to go down to the beach all the while an' watch them two man deh sing, Blues Busters, y'know. Dem people deh was the people dem in the sixties who used to (live) down in Greenwich Farm. They don't really originate there, but they was there, y'know. I think they was from the country, those man, yes.

Q: How was the airplay for The Leaders songs, even though they were few and coming from an unexperienced man like Joe Gibbs in the business? It wasn't much?

A: No, I must tell you somet'ing now, yunno? You see the firs' song we as Leaders ever make...

Q: Was that 'Hope Someday'?

A: No, that was before I even record, before we even record for Joe Gibbs. We made a song and a brethren say "yunno, I know a man who can do some producing for you, ya know" and I say "wha'?". And him carried us to meet a bredda by the name Herbie Carter. So we go to check this brethren name Herbie Carter now, he say "you alright youths, sing this song". So we sing the song. And Herbie Carter say "yes, nice song". And him put it on a cassette and say "alright, come next week Wednesday an' we go to the studio, and we record it". And when we go there the next Wednesday, when we call they tell us that Herbie Carter is not there. He's not there, and every time we keep on going there the people in the yard tellin' us that "he's not there, he's not there". So, we get fed up and say we'd stop go. And one evening as I... as a likkle yout' I hear a sound play down Greenwich Farm an' I hear the song playing. And I realise seh "wha'!?". So our firs' song that we really did, it really was a hit song but we didn't get to record it, somebody stole it just from us. I know it was a song name 'Happy Times'. "There's no sadness nothing but gladness here, we're gonna have happy times together". And Herbie Carter, yeah... And how I get to find out; one day I went up to Harry J, and I saw a gold record in Harry J office, and then I go near an' look at the gold record - it was 'Happy Times' by Herbie Carter! So I realise it's 'im, he did that song for Harry J. But them times deh because we a likkle yout' we don't know nutten ' bout performance rights, nor how to get our rights. But that was my... our firs' song that we did, that we made that really was a hit, yes.

Q: OK, so the recordings with The Leaders didn't take you anywhere, the group split up and next was a few solo recordings released as Keith Blake, for Joe Gibbs?

A: No, no. After that now, you know what we did... after that 'appened, well... it's like...

Q: You got fed up with the music business, went to the Bobo camp?

A: Yes, and seh well, probably I gonna do some fishening beca' we are near to the beach, yunno. And I used to go to the sea, and I used to go catch some fish an' dem t'ings deh. And until one day I see a likkle rastaman and 'im tell me seh "yu know, a great man him name Emmanuel, Prince Emmanuel yunno... him out at Spanish Town Road, yu mus' go deh now yout' and listen weh the man dem say ca' them man deh a some elder weh a teach the truth an' dem t'ing deh, yunno!". So I seh "alright!", and I went out there. And I really love how the teachening that he was teaching, yunno. And the love and the unity that he was teachening, y'know. Beca' you know in Jamaica dem time a pure... plenty tribal war. And when I go hear this rastaman tellin' how we must live together in love and we are all one an' all dem t'ings deh, I did love that. So I stay at the Bobo camp a few years.

You know, it very nice. Every morning we wake up an' we sing praises and we'd read our bible. And then after that who's gone out to sell broom, some gone to the bush... to the woods to cut the stick to make the broom. Some gone to town to buy the straw to make the... you know? So we used to move like a government in our unity, that mean about... 200 of us was there an' everyone had to be fed and everyone had to wear clothes, y'know. No one could be there an' say "bwoy, I am hungry". You know, beca' we share everyt'ing, and I love that... that vibes still. That's why I was there at the Bobo camp, yunno. So after... from the Bobo camp now then this brethren Tappa Zukie now...