Q: What would you say is the main difference, productionwise... how they go about to make a record, between Bertram Brown and Zukie?

A: Alright. Bertram Brown now, he was a likkle quiet yout' weh didn't really know the music. Or didn't know certain arrangements, beca' most of the songs dem that I did for Freedom Sound, is me really suggest to Chinna. I say to Chinna, "Chinna, try this bassline nuh!". Like all 'Bucket...', (hums the bassline) "bop bup boo bidopidobido..." an' all dem t'ings deh, yunno. He used to love it, but he didn't... but because Tappa Zukie used to be amongst man like Bunny Lee an' dem man deh inna the studio an' them t'ing deh, him really have a kinda music... ears, y'know? He had all music-ears, yunno? Yeees! So he was a more musical... he used to really suggest somet'ing to the musician. Beca' them times deh if you don't suggest something good to a musician, yunno... everybody laugh at you, yunno! So you have to have that confidence in yourself that you can say "stop man, play this nuh!". You know? Well, he had that. Most people probably they have an idea but they wouldn't even say to the musician, beca' them don't want the musician laugh at them an' say "you're thinking wrong!". But in Tappa Zukie, him always... if it even wrong an'them say it... but him always have something to say. "Try this, man!", sometime it wrong, yes, but always a say "try this, try this" (laughs)!

Q: Inventive, huh?

A: Yes! Him always, yes, yes...

Q: So what happened after this album, did you go back then to recut the 'Nah Go A Funeral' for Joe Gibbs some time later? Even if you had done it for Zukie already, why do it again for Joe Gibbs?

A: Yeah, but hear I now: You see I did them tune deh, but those tunes was in England an' dem place deh, but I didn't really know the impact that was going on. And I feel like say "well, cho! Tappa Zukie is done with we now, beca' we nah get no money from him an' dem t'ing deh. It look like dem tune deh done", and them t'ing deh. So I did that for Joe Gibbs, but is after I did that for Joe Gibbs now and after a while now I see some people start come from England and tell I about them tune deh I used to do like 'Bucket...' and all them tunes deh, yunno. So I no really look for ca' I think seh it was finished. But I didn't know that it was really still going on in England and dem place there, y'know? That's why I did it over. Beca' I said to myself "you know, that's a good song". And it come like it was wasted. I think it was wasted, so I just do it for Joe Gibbs not knowing that it was really selling in England (laughs).

Q: But did you do any further recordings for Gibbs?

A: Yes, well, before I left Jamaica an' even came up here I finish up an album for Joe Gibbs, yunno.

Q: Even at that time, around '78 - 79?

A: No, recently. You know, before I come here - September.

Q: But at that time?

A: No, I didn't do no more for him, y'know. Beca', again, I didn't get no money. And you know, you recording and not gettin' money and you have your family an' dem t'ings deh...

Q: You were a family man by that time?

A: Yes, so I couldn't really stay with Joe Gibbs them times. So I just "cho!"... And because I wasn't the one really for violence, 'bout money an' t'ing, I just say "cho!", y'know? Yeah man.

Q: What was the payment like? It wasn't exactly like a small weekly "salary" for the sales of the records, whether local or foreign, from Freedom Sounds for instance? Just a payment for the recording itself, and if you were lucky, a small royalty along the sales of the record. But the compensation was never up to standard, was it? Freedom Sounds was no different from other producers?

A: No! No, brother. Well, we used to sing... tell you the truth, yunno... No, beca' you see those songs was selling in England and a man... you don't know what's happening. But you know the time that I really get some money, a likkle money from 'im, is when he used to - after a few years - give Federal some a dem (songs) fe distribute. Federal recordings, y'know? So when Federal send the royalty we'd know what's happening, beca' that company big, Federal in Jamaica.

Q: Khouri?

A: Yes! So, Mr Khouri make me know what's happening in dem time deh. But after a while they did stop and we've been robbed... ripping off start back again.

Q: What was Tubbys like to work with, since you voiced most of the songs at his studio?

A: Bwai, Tubbys a genius my brethren.

Q: I would say that he was always somehow "behind the scenes", it was typically after his death that the real appreciation and recognition to the development of the music came about? Arguably so, perhaps... what would you say?

A: Yes, every time, every time. And Tubbys don't mix for anybody.

Q: Well, apart from his mixing talents, not much is known about him, the person?

A: Yes, yes, yes. And plenty people come to Tubbys studio and recording, and Tubbys don't mix their songs, yunno? It would be Scientist haffe do that. Or a next man do that, or sometimes (Prince) Jammys. But Tubbys used to like mix his songs, because he had a sound system too, y'know? So he like to mix his songs and give his... you know? But I was lucky because when I did this...

Q: You did dubplates for him?

A: No, when I did the song 'Stone' and voiced it up there, I did it at Channel One... aaah yes, and when I voice it that day, meanwhile when I voicin' it, wishing in myself if Tubbys could really come and mix it, but it was Scientist around the board. But in my mind I was wishing if Tubbys... but you know them man deh big, yunno? The man don't mix any or anybody tune, y'know. You haffe be... somebody weh him know or somet'ing. And I hear a voice... when I voiced it I hear a voice come round say "no, mek me take that, mek me take that tune there, mek me take the voicin' of that tune there!". "Tubbys, wha' yu a say you talkin'?", I say. And Tubbys seh "gwaan now, yout'!". "Gwaan, gwaan, gwaan!". And me say "Goowd, God, God...", me nervous now (chuckles), and sing it an' Tubbys take the voice and seh "I goin' mix it too!"... Bwaaai! So everybody happy now. I see Tubbys going to mix it now, an' when Tubbys start mixing it I say to Tubbys "but Tubbys, weh I like hear is like a stone fe mash down Rome, yunno?". And Tubbys seh "wha'? Me have dat, man!", and jus' pass a likkle scraced boxfull an' "a hear some a you're riddims?", I said. "No, not that one Tubbys!"..."brrrh", "blangh!". "No!". Til' him touch one, "wrrruuh!". And we seh "YES, Tubbs!", and it just "we a come now!". And him just a mix that tune deh. The experience that day deh man, is like heaven for me, y'know? Fe know that King Tubbys really...

Q: ... was actually behind that song, as you wished?

A: Yes! And him puttin' a special effect in it too! You know, so... weh him trademark "boop! boop!". Like the BBC news, you know I think he took that sound deh from the BBC news, yunno? Because in Jamaica...

Q: You mean the bleep in the beginning...?

A: Yes! Yes... the BBC news (laughs)! Beca' we used to have the BBC news coming straight from England dem time deh, before in the BBC news you'd hear that "booup, booup! This is the BBC news". Ca'... you know?

Q: What's some of the fondest memories from the days at Freedom Sounds? In my mind, I have a picture of it as a community where you more or less lived together, creating songs together, ate together, you know that spirit of community... was it like that?

A: Yes, yes. Because we used to have a likkle place at the back, at Bertram's he used to have a gully there, and we used to call it "gully bank". Around deh was quiet, and we used to go round there and smoke herb and cook Ital food, and all of us, me, Phillip Frazer, Earl Zero, Sylvan White, Michael Prophet, you know... all of us, Chinna dem, everybody come round there, and we'd sing and make songs out there, yunno. Yeah man, that was our likkle base round there. Yeah, our likkle base that. Then after a while now we had a likkle part round the front we'd call "Corner Stone". A likkle bar was there, and we had jukebox, y'know? And when that tune 'I Man Saw A Stone' was made, we put it in the jukebox an' say "this place name's Corner Stone now!".

Q: Now, what happened to some of the artists from Greenwich Farm in those days, like Frankie Jones, Sammy Dread, they both ended up in the States?

A: Yes, beca' you know them make some mistakes. I think they shouldn't do that, beca' they went on some shows in America, like Sammy Dread an' them man deh, an' they didn't come back. And Frankie Jones, so I feel like if they was still in... even go and come, go and come, don't try gwan and don't come back. I feel like it not better for them even now, beca' Sammy Dread had a good likkle vibe, and Frankie Jones too. Even Earl Zero, but I feel like if he wasn't moving he would be even more... in my mind I feel so, yunno? Beca' we would be even... have to link more with ourselves and that vibes with it, yes. But most of them singers now that was there now...

Q: Rising Son?

A: Rising Son died this year, yunno. Rising Son, y'know?

Q: Sickness, or?

A: Yes, me brethren. I dunno if it's cancer. I think they say it's cancer. Pity. And he sing the last tune about 'Jah Robe', y'know? 'Jah Jah Robe, the robe of calvary', that the last tune of his songs. Very nice, yunno? Well, Michael Prophet and all them man deh come to England, and they just stay there. Earl Zero... (now in California - P). Well, Phillip Frazer is still in Jamaica, but he don't live in Greenwich Farm again, he live cross Portmore area, an' t'ings. But when you really check it right now it is jus' mostly me and Sylvan White is really still in a Greenwich Farm. There's some man who might pass through now and then but me live there still, yunno.

Q: You more or less stopped making records in the early eighties, after the 'Showcase' (aka 'King of the Road') lp for Carlton Jackson. Seems like you felt screwed by that when he released it overseas and you didn't have any control about it, and I read a comment from him about that, some ten years ago he said that after he went back to JA, he had given the lp to Palmer from Jet Star, who in turn gave it to Vista Sounds (who reissued the album in '84, a release when mentioned, Alla didn't know anything about - P), who stated on the album jacket "licensed by Carlton Jackson", which meant that he probably collected the money for it... but I believe he got ripped off as well. So that affair put you off, and then there was the 'Rastafari' 12" out of England, in '82?

A: Yeah man. Yes, I did that for some people in England, yunno. They used to live in Greenwich Farm too, Aswad family them, y'know? I did it for... But I tell you, I used to go through plenty t'ings because I never used to get any money. No money. For 'Bosrah', 'Funeral', none a dem. It's just since I start deal with Blood & Fire now me really get some money from them through deh. But them times I never used to really get no money beca' they used to just sell them songs deh a foreign and we don't know what's happening, yeah man.

Q: But you've maintained the relationship between you and Bertram Brown over the years still? No big differences?

A: Yes, yes, beca' you know... yeah, although dem t'ings happened, but... Bwoy, sometimes I just... see sometimes not jus' because of the money, we leave dem still, y'know? We talk still, yunno. But because I really don't deal with the violence that's why I really leave it, and start do some fishening beca' I don't want fe deal with violence to get me money an'... it hurt him more than would be good for me, so... I say better fe just "Rastafari" you know and go catch some fish, an' dem t'ings deh. Until the right time come again.