Q: You stayed in New York for a while. A: It was a one-year scholarship. I stayed there for the whole year, and everybody kept saying to me 'Oh, you should be teaching'. When I heard about it after I left school, I felt much better going down and play in a club at the time. So I head from Providence where the school was, and stick it out and got lucky. I met some wealthy people up there who invited me to live at their house and I got a half scholarship from them. I was living in that big house over there, I entered that school as a junior, and by that time Bob Marley came to town. And I just had to pack up all that I was doing. I had a workshop going... Q: Exhibitions? A: Exhibitions and Music & Art workshops. But when Bob came I wouldn't leave Bob alone, because... Q: This was around '73? A:'75. And then I... Q: There was dancing too, don't know how much focus you put into doing that but you was working as a dancer at this time as well, weren't you? A: Yeah, actually as a kid I used to dance too but I started dancing with a group called Sun Ra, and I saw him about '75. I was dancing and playing percussion. He had an incredible orchestra. Q: Yeah, was going to ask about what sort of influence you got from him while being in the Intergalactic Arkestra, the legendary band he put together. Quite a band, eh? How was it? A: Well, it was all strange for me, period. I was taking some courses at Drummond University, some music courses with a professor called Robert Northern - 'Brother All' we call him, and we had a good call along the way with his ensemble, so I was a little bit exposed to a lot of free style jazz, and some of what has emerged into now - holistic music. We were doing that back there, y'know, over thirty years ago. And I got a chance to play bass at one of their concerts, when they had a special guest, like Max Roach. Playing bass there I got kinda exposed to that kind of music, and that was something else, it was totally the ultimate. Then I started hangin' out with some of the members, I go and spend time with them, kinda living with them down there at the same time. And these guys were masters, we're talkin' about people like John Gillmore who influenced the great John Coltrane. We had Pat Patrick, Danny (Davis), Marshall Allen... Q: That's saying a lot, doesn't it, influencing someone like Coltrane at that time? You feel like the only 'influence' he had was himself! Coltrane was exceptional.

John Gillmore.

John Coltrane.

A: Oh yeah! No, we had some serious... this was the ultimates on all instruments, these were the very best guys - on the planet! He had Ronnie Boykins on bass! I mean, you've never heard a bass player in your whole life to play like this man! And everybody was just... such a shining star! Q: No exaggeration. A: No, what they were doing, man, it was incredible! In fact, I just found some cassettes that I made, y'know, sometimes when I was playing I would run out in the audience and just push the button and make some recordings. And different pieces of solos that I had liked, I was just listening. Oh, it's incredible! Q: You used a good ol' reel-to-reel for that, I guess? A: No, at that time Sony just developed this little hand-held cassette recorder. It was fresh at the time and I had to have one of them, and I used to just press the button, recording it. So, yeah, I had some cassettes with great solos, man! I couldn't believe it when I was just listening to it recently, 'cause I hadn't played this thing in like about twenty odd years, I had to find it, yeah. Q: Precious memories. A: But in the Village too, in New York here, yeah. Q: What was your impression of Sun Ra as a person, was kinda difficult to get into? A: Yeah, for some reason, for some people. But Sun Ra loved me, I had no problems with Sun Ra, even when he'd say when I had to wait backstage until he comes for me personally, hug me and take me, walk me out to the stage and walk me around and introduce me to the audience, y'know, that's how he approached me. 'Cos I was totally different, I was the only Jamaican - Rasta - in the group so I can add a union in a way, to the group. And I was doing this very dangerous dance, 'fire dance'. I was blowing fire, y'know, from my mouth, and I had these costumes that I made from, out of Jamaican culture. So I didn't find no difficulty in getting on with him, I think he liked me. He taught me, I learned a few things from him, I learned a lot about numerology for the first time, from him. And one day at breakfast he started telling me about numerology, and explained to me the whole t'ing how it works, and it was so interesting, man! I was almost totally in shock. I started researching, reading and learning as much as I could about numerology, and I found that it's one of the true things on the planet, y'know, how it really work. Incredible. Q: What was his knowledge about Jamaica, reggae, or even Rasta for that matter, when you came? Limited, if nothing at all? A: Sonny (Blount, Ra's 'real' name)? He didn't seem to dwell a lot into that, he was mostly into the whole cosmic philosophy, whereby he believed he was from the planet Saturn, and that all black people was from outer space. And the true color of space, it's not blue but it was black, which is very true. The blue is the reflection of light. But I noticed on an aeroplane and the higher it look above you, is the darker. The whole thing comes when it's actually jet-black up there. He had all these incredible phrases that he used to say on stage, and everybody disarmed, was things that we used to chant. It was incredible... I remember when I was leaving to go back to Jamaica to record 'Discrimination', I told him that "Sonny, I have to go back to Jamaica". Him say "What?!" I say "Yeh, I have to go back". "Why?", he said. I said, "I want to go and record some reggae". "But you can record some reggae with me?!" I was like 'Wha'! What?!' (laughs)! Q: (Laughs) A: It was like - back then it didn't sound like a good idea, but now it certainly would've been a good idea (laughs)! But I was a little shocked when he said that, because I thought 'What?' I was inspired still to hear that though. He wasn't happy about me leaving at all.

Sun Ra.

Sun Ra.

Q: Did he know anything about reggae at this point? It was so fresh at the time, so new, I mean reggae was on its way to break in the States in that period, we're talking mid seventies. A: It was new but that's Sun Ra, Sun Ra's mind is more new than most people think. You know, he's way back in the past but still into the future. His music influenced most of the futuristic music, fusion, that kind of music that is appearing now, Sun Ra's ideas play a great part in it. In fact, let me tell you, with Brother All - Robert Northern, y'know, same time about early seventies, '75, we recorded an album, right. And recently the album has been released on CD, and now he's getting rave reviews. I spoke to him two weeks ago, and he said "Look, y'know, the record companies is trying to find all the players who plays on that album to cut another album". Because thirty years later, the album starts moving, and people is just rediscovering the album since the CD came out. And so he's getting all these wonderful emails from all over the world. So we're getting ready to go cut another album soon, with all the players that we could find from the original album. We were thirty years ahead of our time, and a lot of people is just now getting into that kind of music, the kind of holistic trance-jazz-fusion kind of music. Q: How much jazz did you pay attention to back in Jamaica? I suppose most of the musicians on the 'dancehall' scene in the sixties took in mostly the soul and pop stuff at the time, instead of jazz. Jazz was more of an influence during the fifties. A: No, the musicians... The Skatalites was jazz. Q: Yeah, sure, they were. A: They all knew jazz, they all could play jazz, also. But ska became Jamaican jazz, that's what I felt like it was - Jamaican jazz, y'know. They knew all these songs and because those musicians back then were trained musicians, they all mostly went to Alpha Boys School, and they were trained there. Even Cedric Brooks was trained in jazz, a lot of players in the hotels, there were a lot of jazz music in the hotels back then, like Carl McLeod was a great jazz drummer. I remember there was a guy who used to jam with us at the Stables night club, at North Station - Hugh Malcolm. He used to always come, and we used to play songs like 'Take Five', and a few of the jazz songs of the time too. So he would be sitting in with us, and a lot of times there would be jazz. Oh yeah, there was quite a few jazz too, jazz wasn't anything new to us. Q: Jazz were influential to mainly the horn players at the time, yeah? Drummers too, perhaps. A: Drummers and horn players. Drummers too, yeah. Even the bass, because Skatalites was playing - (Lloyd) Brevett was playing the upright bass, acoustic bass, so he played that through he was trained in jazz. Tommy McCook was also trained in jazz, most of these guys were jazz players. You know, before the recordings, prior to recording. But they were so gifted that they strived to develop their own sound, their own style, which became ska. Q: Stand-up bass, that's what you'd call a 'doghouse' in Jamaica, right (laughs)? A: Yeah, right - 'doghouse-bass' (laughs)! Wha'? You know, you seem to know a lot about the Jamaican culture too (laughs)! Q: OK. So you stayed with Sun Ra for about three years before you left? A: Five years, 'cos even from when I came here and went to Jamaica and I went back, came back to New York and linked up with him again. And at the Bottomline they had a bandstand and a lot of bazaars was happening, huge bazaars in Philadelphia where we meet and play. On the same stage you had a lot of great players - Mongo Santamaria, Rudy Gans, just a lot of great players. We had fun, man! For me it was very exciting meeting and playing with all these, y'know. In fact I took Brad... somebody told me recently how Brad was always braggin' about Sun Ra, and how way out he was, when he was listening to different kinds of music, and he was even bragging about his musical taste. And I remember I was the one who invited Brad to listen to Sun Ra. He was like 'Whaaat the hell!' (chuckles). He was so shocked, yeah! That was at the Five Spot in the Village. Q: 'Brad'? Brad who? A: Brad, Brad the producer.

Johnny Clarke & Brad Osbourne (circa 1975)

Q: Oh, OK! You mean Brad Osbourne? A: Yeah. I took Brad down there one night. He stayed about half an hour and then the female he brought with him, she was shocked what was happening, yeah (laughs)! Q: I don't hear too much of the link between reggae and the scene of jazz in New York during those days though, neither now for that matter. A: Oh, it was close, especially the Sun Ra kind of jazz, y'know. No, this is the only connection there was. The absolute only one, yeah. Q: Right. So how close were you to Brad, the owner to the Clocktower label? A: Actually the family I was staying with when I just came to New York, the man's name was 'Dutty Eric' Alexander, he was in partnership with Brad when they started the store, he was Brad's partner and very fun, and he was one of the financers for the store. But then he decided to split the partnership. Q: It was Clocktower at the time, or was there anything before that? A: Yes, he had a label. In fact I spent many times hangin' out at the store with Brad, because they did this to Brad and... I was within like walking distance, so I used to go down to the store and hang out with Brad at the time and always talk with him, always talk, and I was always hoping that we would've done something. He was at the time recording like Dennis Brown, Johnny Clarke and a few of those people. So, at the time I was a good friend of his, but we never actually got to the studio, we never do anything. Q: What studio did Brad use for his Clocktower productions at the time? He was based in the Bronx, right? A: Yeah, he was in the Bronx, but I don't even remember. Q: He didn't use Wackies' studio for his own productions? A: I don't know if it was Wackies' studio he was using, 'cos at that time Wackie was still in a house. But it could've been. I'm not sure because I never actually got in the studio with him, and if Brad was still alive he would have his own studio, and it would make a big impact. Q: What happened to him? The story is that he got shot around 1980, or thereabouts, some would suggest a couple of years later? He was quite dominant on the New York scene at the time. A: 1980? Was it that late? Q: I think so, '80 or the year after. A: No, no, no. It had to be long before that. Because how I know, by that time I was - no, it had to be late seventies. Q: More like close to '78 or so? A: Yeh, it had to be somewhere there because it certainly wasn't '80/ 81, Bob died in '81. No man, he died much earlier, Brad died about, say, I wouldn't be surprised if he died about 1977. Q: Did you hear any details what happened? A: I just heard he was murdered, just a shooting. I didn't hear too much details, it must've happened at his store, but I'm not sure though. It was a big shock. Q: Yeah, he left a big gap somehow. Then you came back to Jamaica about '75? A: It was in '74 and also '75 on two longer stays and '82, and then in '76. Been back and forth ever since then, but '75 I start recording.

Ras Karbi.

Ras Karbi playing guitar inna de yard.

Q: Before we get into that, when did you sight up Rastafari? It wasn't during the 'awakening' in the seventies, it was prior to this, like long before? A: The way I grew up in Jamaica, I grew up in that kind of environment, a Rasta environment. As a kid, not even a year old, there was a great hurricane in Jamaica, and people, everybody was looking for work, and what happened: This Rastaman used to come and borrow me from my parents and take me to his... his name goes by Jah Bounty, he used to say 'This is my son', y'know. And he worked to feed me, even get work. Next day he come and borrowed me, he's coming back, back and forth. That Rastaman gave me my first kette drum and I kinda used to always play, play, play. He couldn't even play on that drum, I always used to hold on to this thing. So I start to pickin' up on how to play kette, to drum, something that I'm master of. And, y'know, I grow up on going to Rasta meetings, what they used to have in Spanish Town. Anything to do with music or singin', I would never distort it, it was just a part of the environment. And by that time I start searching for that spiritual side. You know, in the end it had to be Rasta. Q: Did your family go to church on a regular basis? It's so close to the Jamaican spirit, the church. A: Well, my family never go to church. My mother go to church once a year, which was New Year's Eve. And she went to a Catholic church in Spanish Town, and I end up at a Catholic school also by the time I was twelve. So, we had to go to that church also. And the Catholic church was the main church. But because of the nature of the priest at the time, y'know, a lot of us we didn't take the religion very serious, because we had a very bad priest. He used to just try to dominate everybody, and try to cope with the chicken, that's a big difference (laughs)! So, yeah, we used to jus' humour him. Q: Ridicule it. A: Yeah, but we didn't have a lot of faith in us, the way we were treated by the nuns. The things that they would do was very evil things, they were very mean to us. But I remember though, one of my convictions as far as Rasta goes, what held me to really seriously think about Rasta - and was something very valid, was this Irish nun who was principal at school. Selassie was visiting Jamaica in 1966, an' he was gonna come to our hometown where I was elected to play guitar and there was a singing group set up, the girls that was gonna sing, and the nun had written this song that I remember to this day. And I remember one day she just started telling us all these great things about Selassie, what a great king he was. She started tell us about all these things, incredible things about him. But the society was divided and the feelings about Selassie, the politicians and the middle class people were saying one thing - who was against him, and the poorer class of people was for him, so I was like caught in the middle. But this nun really revealed a lot of things. And then when Selassie came to Jamaica, and actually I went - I was there, not too far from where he was standing, 'cause we was about to start singing when the riot broke out between the police and the Rastas. I saw how the whole thing happened, that really helped me to reinstate what was happening, I had never seen nothing like this in my whole life. The reaction from the crowd and how the whole riot started between the Rastas and Babylon, it started actually by the Babylons, and I was saving this kid, was pulling him up. He got set on, bruised up a bit, but I was able to save his life. And the ironic thing about it was that his father was a shoemaker, and I went to school barefooted - I never had shoes. I remember his father wanted to meet me because I had been saving his son's life so he want to see me and so I went by to meet him, and he never even noticed that I didn't have any pair of shoes on! So, he never offered me any (chuckles), and that was that. Neither did the nun, she never offered me any. They had storerooms filled with shoes, and I never got any from them. Q: That's too bad. A: It was so strange, y'know. Because I was like the nuns favourite person, I was the one she sent to the bank, to bank the money. I was the only person that she could trust. I would run their errands, deliver all the letters, hand-deliver letters, give the fares to the postman. And, yes, so strange... Q: Yes. A: I won an art-scholarship back then - not art-scholarship, but poster-competition. I won second place at national competition, and I had to go to her for money to go to the place to pick up the prize. She send this other guy with me, and the prize I know was stolen by the people. And they just give me this pen, this one pen, y'know! Just one pen. I saw third prize, it was about fifty books, and for my prize I had to go outside to this car where the woman was sitting, and I remember this woman was the woman I had given the poster to to enter the competition. This was in Kingston, and she just took out this pen from out of the trunk of the car and said "Here!" And I just felt 'Oh, no, something is wrong'. To this day the nun she didn't believe me, she thought I had hid the prize. But the thing is she sent a witness with me, but he must've been a bit scared towards me.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)