Q: What a thing. What was the reason for leaving the jazz scene and go to Jamaica, were you a bit fed-up with New York and wanted to branch off and do something a little different from what had been the main focus up to that point, I mean working on the New York scene? A: No, I always had a band during that time, also, while I was at Resee & Brown. I had a band, guys in New York. I'd pick them up to come and play, and we'd play. While I wasn't with Sun Ra, then I'll be doing nightclubs up there, and in the nightclubs we'd do reggae. I wasn't tired, I wanted to record. It was time for me to record because I had started writing songs. 'Discrimination' was the first song I wrote. These songs were like... Q: What's behind the lyrical content for that song? Was it about an early experience, or was it from an incident that happened shortly after you had come back on the island? A: This is the one song that people always ask me that same question about, y'know. But, I had taken a part-time job at a restaurant in Providence, and I remember when going for the interview I wore a tam. And the guy said "OK, start tomorrow", and me said sure. Next day I came back and he gave me this act to wearing a hat, because I used to work in the kitchen at first, so I told him, "But you don't understand, this hat won't fit me, my hair is long". So he said, "Oh! I know long hair, don't worry about it, you just go inside the bathroom and just put it on and come back". And I went inside the bathroom, took off my tam and came out, and oh my God - the guy almost fainted! And I went back in the bathroom because he came by with the hat, and I tried to fit it on. When I looked through the keyhole I saw the whole entire staff waiting in the passage. I opened the door and everybody just 'Ohhh, lord!' It was like a big shock for them, and I was fired within two hours. He told me it was a slow day, and he called me to meet him. And I went in the changing room, start changing and this waitress she was also residee at the art school I was going, she saw me get dressed "Are you leaving?" I said yeah. "Why?", she said. I said that the guy said it was a slow day. But she said "But, man! This is the biggest day we had the whole week! Oh my God, I can't believe it, it's done racist!" She was really swearing, y'know. Q: This was, of course, a white restaurant? Typical. A: Yeah! Totally white, and the girl was also white, and that guy was white. So I was sent home, and the moment I went home, sat on the couch and started writing the song. But the funny thing about it, I had a dream, a recurring dream, the whole week prior to that, about Selassie standing over my shoulder while I was teaching all these kids under this tree. He was always observing, he never ever spoke, he just came behind me and looked over my shoulder. Then, the following weekend I had another dream about being in Jamaica and things that happened, and so I had this strong urge to go to Jamaica. Once I got there everything in that dream happened. From the moment I got there, it started happening. Oh, it's amazing... And the song was an instant hit. Q: Can you recall when it was written? A: Yeah, '75 I actually wrote and record that song. It was released '76, it could've been at the end of '75 that we - I don't remember exactly which season, but Jamaica is always summer so it's hard for me to sort out which season. Q: Right, to hold the seasons apart. But it was written around that time then, not earlier. But before anything else, did you record in the studio with Sun Ra before you left, or just playing live with his band? A: No, most of the performances was recorded, nearly every single performance was recorded, we never... Q: But studiowise? A: Um, in the studio - no. A lot of Sun Ra stuff was done live, not in the studio. Sun Ra by that time had over hundred albums, and mostly was recorded live. Because these guys was so excellent, man! They were just... oh, my God! Unbeliveable. He rarely go to the studio. This guy named Emmanuel, he used to follow us around and record everything that we do, and everything Sun Ra said. Q: So let's go into the circumstances that led up to the recording of 'Discrimination' now. Did you go to a bunch of producers before meeting up with (Dermot) Hussey, who produced those sessions for you? A: Yeah, I actually went to record 'Discrimination' - but not how I wanted to, with Tommy Cowan at that time. Because Tommy was the happening producer at the time, nothing happened except...

Tommy Cowan and Gayman Aberger. (Photo taken by Dennis Morris)

Q: It was he and his production-partner, this guy called 'Gayman'? A: Yeah, you know 'bout Gayman Aberger? Yeah, Gayman was workin' with him at that time too. But Tommy just kept putting me off, putting me off. And one day he called me to the room, and asked me to sing two songs. One was 'Discrimination', the other was 'Promised Land'. And in that room was Inner Circle and Jacob Miller, Ken Boothe, Wayne Chin. I remember quite a few musicians who were with him at the studio at the time - I mean inside the room. Q: This was at Talent Corporation. A: Yeah, Talent Corporation, once it was so good. But, what happened out of that, I never actually record with Tommy. Jacob Miller stole my style I had, I had this unique style -the 'a-a-ah' t'ing, I had that on 'Promised Land'. No, wasn't on 'Promised Land'! It was on a song I haven't recorded yet. OK, it's called 'Unoo No Listen Yet', that song was also recorded and stolen later on by Ziggy Marley! Same bass player, Vision, that he's related to, he was working with the Melody Makers at the time and he told me they were rehearsing one of my songs, and I didn't know which one. And later on I heard it on one of his recordings, and I didn't get credit for that. Q: Typical rip-off if that's the case, yeah. A: It happens, maybe Ziggy didn't even know. But, yeah, Jacob cut that style, 'cos he wanted me to give Jacob one 'Discrimination' to sing, and I said, "Oh noooo, that is my strongest song! I want to record that, man" (laughs)! So I get frustrated waiting on Tommy, and so I saw Dermot and said, "Let's go to this man". Dermot had sent me to this distributor who was financing lot's of music at the time, and the guy of course chased me away (chuckles)! Q: Who was that? A: A guy called Herman McDonald, he was an Australian guy who had Total Sounds, had a distribution company in Jamaica. I got a couple of guys, like Horsemouth, Peter Tosh, and I played bass on that, Tyrone Downie (keyboards), and we record 'Discrimination' and took it back to him.

Tyrone Downie.

Peter Tosh.

Q: Where was the session? A: Joe Gibbs, the engineer was Errol Thompson. But then there was - I did some overdub and mixing at Harry J, with Sylvan Morris doing the mix. Uh-oh, he said that I shouldn't mention that he was the one who did the mix. Sylvan says "Never call my name", mainly because he wasn't satisfied with the mix, the way I wanted it to sound. I wanted to have the vocal on it, both vocals, because I was making a dance song, y'know, as a song to dance. So I wanted the lyrics to come up very clear, so I went for that kinda mix. But anyway, the guy took it and released it and to this day it was the company's biggest hit. He made so much money. One morning he never showed up at work, and all the staff was locked out and they called the house, and the landlord said "Oh, he left"! The guy pulled all the money out of the bank and split to Australia, and never told us anything. Q: This guy McDonald? Isn't that something... A: Yeah, he went back to Australia! The company was locked up, all the workers was locked out and nobody ever heard from him again. Then Neville Lee came in from England, Byron Lee called him up and Neville Lee rushed in and grabbed the company and changed the name to Sonic Sounds, and disclaim everything else that was done before. Q: Which probably means that Neville Lee is sitting on the master tapes for your stuff, but does he really own it? A: I'm quite sure he does, but he's not saying that. Q: (Laughs) A: He's not saying he does, 'cos I enquired about my stuff. I have my master tape, original tape, right here. But it sounds no good (laughs)! It's so old. Q: But you gotta copy it to Digital Audio Tape, 'bake' it or 'cook' it as they say. A: Yeah, to digital, bake it. I don't know who have a A-track machine (chuckles). But funny enough, I had two other songs that I recorded at the same time, with Peter Tosh too and (Willie?) Stewart, they never got released, never got mixed or anything. They should be on the tape still. Q: Can you recall the titles? A: Yeah, one was a different version of 'Promised Land', and the other one could've been 'Marshall Law', but I'm not sure if it was, can't remember.

Dermot Hussey.

Chris Blackwell.

Q: Dermot Hussey took you to Chris Blackwell too at one point, didn't he? He was asking for some advise for you how to go about with those records. A: Yeah, he wanted Chris to hear me, so he invited Chris over to his house. Chris came and hung out there for about an hour, I basically sang him some songs. He brought a man with him called Michael Butler, Butler wanted to sign me for an upcoming show, he wanted me to write some songs for that show. So I was basically transferred over to Butler, and Chris had told me to record. If I wanted I should record with Herman Chin-Loy at the time. Herman and I go way back. Q: Aquarius studio. A: Yes, 'cos Herman was also one of the singers in Now Generation, the origination of Now Generation. But I didn't like the idea so much to record with Herman, but I think Chris wanted to make sure that OK, I got an experience first, kind of a filter t'ing, like. And then I should come back to him, which I never did. Q: How did you link with the former JBC man, Dermot Hussey, in the first place? Did you know about him prior to this, I assume probably as a radio announcer, but to actually be involved in the music business? A: No, because I was up here at the time when Dermot - I met Dermot, because part of it had to do with that dream I told you about, at the house where I was living. Out of everything that happened I would meet this man, was a producer, told me it was a producer - what's his name now...? Can't remember his name, but he saw me with a guitar outside by the swimming pool one day, and he came down to enquire, like wondering if I was a musician or what. 'Cos he was producing and told me he had a show and needed somebody on it to sing, and so he asked to do it and Dermot... and that's when I met Dermot. And Dermot had heard that I was going to, y'know, Dermot is a jazz fanatic, so he heard that I was with Sun Ra before, and played with all these great masters, so... Q: That was an obvious link between you both - the jazz. A: Yeah, that was the first connection. So we met for the first time at the Intelligen (?) studio, and I did two songs on that show, and came off very well. And Dermot and I became stuck together, ever since that day, until now. I think I have to call him later on today too (chuckles), because he's here in America, he's in DC. And, yeah, we just grew from there. Q: How much was actually recorded at that first session? I learned it was three hours booked, where three songs were cut, so you had to be pretty effective in such a short space of time. A: Yeh, but let me ask you a question - how do you know so much? Q: Ah! Well, that is something to wonder about (laughs)! Research business, right? You did an interview in '76, around Carifesta (to Mike Phillips). A: (Laughs) OK, alright! Well, then maybe you can remember some of those details (laughs)! You seem to know a lot more, man! Q: Right (laughs)! A: OK. Yeah, it was just three songs and I had to re-record 'Promised Land' afterwards. Q: Yeah, I just listened to 'Discrimination' and compared it with... A: The new one, the one you heard on the CD? Q: Yeah, that was a recut, right. A: Yeah, that was Sly & Robbie.

Q: Right, but if we're talking about the original recordings, there seems to be a difference in instrumental line-up between 'Discrimination' and 'Promised Land'. It almost sounds like the Wailers plays on 'Promised Land', particularly in the percussion department. A: Yeah, the 'Promised Land' was... Q: At least on the drums? A: No, the 'Promised Land' honestly was Ronnie Murphy plays drums on that, and Ibo Cooper (Third World) played keyboards. Let's see, I played bass again on that, Evar Murphy also plays guitar on that. Q: But it sure sounds like Carlton Barrett on the drums, those recognisable drum patterns. It's been my impression for a while, I tell you that. A: Who? Carlton? No, it was Ronnie, Ronnie Murphy, he was just a kid at the time, young kid.

Q: Still a small Barrett influence I'd say. A: You're talkin' 'bout the 'Promised Land', the single, right? Q: Yeah. A: There was Ronnie Murphy, I remember I was creating that style, I was playing something like that too, so I had to show him. Yeah, the voices were arranged by a very unique woman named Melba Liston. She was also a jazz icon, she was one of the number one female trombone players in jazz. She played and she was a chorus writer for Quincy Jones, she used to play with - who did she play with...? Oh, my gosh, Randy Weston! Quite a few of those people.

Randy Weston and Melba Liston.

Q: And the song itself, it's just an expression of spiritual longing and the connection to the African ancestry, and the hardship and/or the 'social burden' of being Rasta in those times? A: Yeah, it kinda express the Jamaican society and how people start react to you when you're growing dreadlocks. You know, people that work in the bank, even if you know them from schooldays, they would sometimes cross on the other side.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)