Q: Who was this 'buddy' you were singin' about, or should I say 'spar', the one who would run over to the other side of the street when spotting you? It's basically fictional? A: Well, y'know, I can't remember - I don't remember anyone in particular that I could single out, that would do that. But that was the normal reaction back then, people think you're crazy. You know, something is 'wrong' with you. Even before I actually started growing my locks, see, I haven't cut my hair since 1965. And I remember by 1972 I was going to this theatre to see a concert, there was a big crowd so they call out the armed balance, the policemen. And I remember one of the police walk right over to me and he said "Hey you! Go to the back of the line!", and I was like 'What!' I started the line from the back! I didn't skip the line! And he insist that I should go to the back of the line, and the people started takin' him on "Oh, I saw him, he never skipped the line". 'Cos, y'know, I was just well-behaved, I was just standing, nothing, nothing. Part of it was that this guy didn't like me because I wearing a tam on my head! So he just take it out and jus' launched the batton at my eye and I moved back fast and the batton just touched my eyelid - I would've had one eye to this day if I hadn't moved fast enough! And so he just grabbed off my hat and throw it inside the theatre, and said (lower his voice) "Move out yuh Rasta!", but then he walked off. But then, in them days if you see Rasta people have wild reactions. Q: Some sort of alienation or disgust, distance themselves from you, all of that. A: Yes, like anything (chuckles)! Sometime you have to expect the worst. Q: All this persecution in the land where it started. A: Well, Ras as you know come out of Ethiopia. Q: Sure, but where the movement started, that's obviously Jamaica. A: But as far as the worship of Haile Selassie, as the Earth's Rightful Ruler, emerged out of Jamaica. They say a king is never recognised in his own country, so that's how that goes. Jamaica fight Rasta very, very hard. One of the hardest place. Q: Especially in the early days. A: Yeah, in the early eighties it was very difficult too, and it goes right back to the early days. I don't see any changes much. I see development within Rasta, but I see - the same stigma is still there.

Q: I don't know if you ever recorded it back then, but in '76 you spoke about 'Babylon Gravestone' to be one of the upcoming songs. Was it ever recorded? You did it later on anyway. A: I did? Wow! That's amazing, because in 1977 I embarked on cutting this album in Jamaica, I was financed by this guy called - can't remember his name, but it will come soon... Q: (Laughs) Which company? A: It was an independent producer, who was producing. I actually found out that this guy was very wealthy, and I asked Dermot's wife to ask him if he wanted to help finance an album, and of course he said "Oh no, no way! I don't like reggae!" Q: He was Jamaican? A: Yeah, he was Jamaican, a Jamaican white, white Jamaican. But by the following year I got a message from him, saying 'Hey, if you wanna record, I'm ready'. Apparently he just started recording, he just found out that, y'know, this is something, this is the way to go. So he was recording some other people and so I called him, I took part of the band from here, and put the rest of the guys from Jamaica together. And we start cut an album which never finished, because he came on during the middle of the whole thing with a five hundred page contract, said "Sign here, I need it by tomorrow". And I said to Dermot, "Listen, man. I can't sign this, man! This is a artist recording agreement contract, the guy is not a recording company, he's an individual, y'know". I had learned already by that time that this is not the thing to do. So I refused to sign it, and the guy refused to finish financing the album, so... We went to, after many persevations, I said that I need a lawyer to look at this (raising voice) "Oh! You're a big star, oh!" He was shockin' me (laughs)! So I said "What? It's normal!" "No, no, no! All the big stars ask the lawyer. OK, I'll get you a lawyer". I said, "No, I don't want you to get me a lawyer" (laughs). "I could find my own lawyer, in New York". "Oh! You're a big star, you can't use no Jamaican lawyer?" It turned to pressure a bit, but I didn't break. So he went in and listened to the album and the moment we put on what we had of the album, because we had already record all the riddim tracks, already voiced about three songs, so we put it on and the guy was about to light a cigarette but didn't know of the album's songs. He just never lit that cigarette - he was in such a shock of the music. It was incredible! Q: Any memories of the players on that album? A: I will try to remember (laughs)! OK, we had Ronnie Murphy, was playing drums. We had a guy called Sowell... Q: Sowell Radics (Noel Bailey)? A: Yeah, playing guitar. We had Evar, but Evar didn't do any recording, 'cos Evar cop out on seh about... he was upset about something. But he was on the rehearsal, we rehearse for like about three weeks, up in the hills, the Blue Mountains. Was I playing bass...? Oh, Vision played bass, so I guess I was playing guitar and percussion. And on keyboards a guy named Fergy, Ferguson...?

Bernard "Touter" Harvey

Ras Karbi

Q: You don't mean Touter (Bernard Harvey, Inner Circle)? A: No, no, he was also in the same time with Touter, but I think he was playing even before Touter. But he quit music, he got frustrated and went to Miami, didn't bother in playing no more. But he was a very talented keyboard player. Yeah, those guys, and that's about it. But I remember at the end of listening to that tape the guy said "Oh", puts it to Herman's brother - same Chin-Loy, "put him in the vaults". And that's where they are until this day, as far as I know. I never saw the tapes again. Two years after the guy died, and Chin-Loy refuse to turn over the tape. Had some reminisces about the guy owed him some money. I said no, we don't owe no money on this tape, it was recorded in a total different studio, in Harry J, and he had no right to do that. Yeah, he kept the tape and at the same time his brother Herman is beggin' me to record an album with him, and I said no, your brother's got my tape locked up, I'm not doing it. But that was '77, so 'Babylon Gravestone' was recorded. We had a different tempo, it was a little faster than the one you hear now. So maybe that's why I was able to mention that back in '76, 'cos I perhaps already wrote that song, or was in the process of writing it, that could be where it comes from. Q: The first session which produced 'Discrimination' though, on it it sure sounds like a kazoo for good effect - that's a kazoo you used (laughs)? A: No, it was no kazoo. I wasn't aware of the kazoo, but... As the 'kazoo', is it kazoo? Q: Yeah (laughs), I believe it's 'kazoo'. Yes, yes. A: Are you laughing (laughs)? Q: Yeh, it adds a certain charm to it, y'know, the kazoo, giving it some sort of humouristic feel, I suppose that's what you were looking for. A: OK, what I used was a comb and paper, y'know. In those days the cigarette box used to have some fires (?), that's what I use because you could cut the cards that way and, yeah, that's the sound I wanted, the raunchy sound. It was something totally different, some outstanding - something that you hear for the first time on recording in Jamaica. Q: It lends a comical or ironic air to the song, with that sound added. A: Yeah, it's humorous (laughs)! It fits right in with the humour of the song.

Q: Even though you got some setbacks when the Total Sounds label folded, McDonald left and all that, why didn't you and Dermot make an album in quick succession to follow up the popularity of the 45's at the time? Was there time and space to actually do it, or did he leave before this could be accomplished? A: Probably because Dermot wasn't really experienced in that area in the music business, and I guess we didn't get any financial return much from Herman, so that was already a disappointment. And of course after going to wasting our time with Tommy, didn't get recorded, and then... that happens. Then, in those days, the way to go is independent, to do your own thing when you have some money and don't worry about it. And I wasn't the kinda guy who would go to a recording studio and hang out, that wasn't my main thing to do, like the other guys have to be hangin' for a week, or a month, a year before they get recorded. I could never see myself doing that. So I was always busy, y'know, doing something else... if you know, and try to raise money to record. But my time wasn't to relax, I was back and forth doing live shows, 'cos I had a band working here in America and I had no problem with getting work. I also was recording here, those recordings was never made into - we never press any vinyl, but some of them made their way to some of the top radio stations here in America and also got noted for being one of the most requested songs. There's a song called - is the American side to this now (laughs), a song called 'I Wanna Be The President', and one called 'No Work Today'. 'No Work' became a very big hit in the Boston area. Q: When was that recorded? A: Um, '78/79. Q: After the singles with Dermot, during that time, did you get to perform at the Carifesta concert in '76? A: Carifesta, Carifesta... did I do anything there? No, not Carifesta, I wasn't at the Carifesta. I didn't do anything there. Yeah, I trod back to Jamaica about 1980. Actually, you know, after Bob's death... Q: OK, so you retreated. You worked in the States, at least for a few years, when the album deal didn't work out? A: Yeah, the thing is that I would always be going back and forth, back and forth, from Jamaica to New York. Constantly. Ten times of the year sometimes. I was always going back there, for some reason or the other. But every chance I get, y'know, my father died in 1980, I went back and stayed for a little bit. But I was always having these dreams that I get, I guess you would have to call me dreamer after this... Q: Right (chuckles)! A: But I had a very strange dream one night, about Bob and the Wailers. And that week, the guy that was managing me, took me to this recording, or management company, and they offered me what was supposed to be the biggest contract any reggae artist - including Bob - had ever seen. And they say, "You have to come meet the members of the Wailers". Because I had two hits with the Wailers by that time - 'Jah Rastaman' and 'Longing For Your Touch'. So, they say you have to commit the Wailers to back you on the tour, and complete the album. Then they put up the money and do the rest, y'know. They went down to talk to the Wailers about it. But of course, I didn't realise this was gonna happen about Junior (Marvin). Of course he wanted to be the next Bob Marley, and for sure gave me the runaround, and I was like 'What?Was 'im so silly?' But anyway, they went ahead and made some mistakes after that with the whole deal, signing away the Wailers thing. But he was scared, he didn't want to have another singer of the band, or have anybody to...

Q: To compete. A: Anything like that. Yeah, you could see he wanted to be that guy. So, man, that was a silly thing to do. But anyway (laughs), this company, man! They have Frank Zappa, they had all these top stars, man, you were in heaven, all these big stars. They were gonna get into a serious job, but they didn't realise 'No, it's just a jealousy', it was nothing else. 'Cos I went with Dermot by my side and we spoke to them, and that (deal) wasn't to happen, and so I left with a disappointment. It didn't happen, and the whole population of Jamaica was wondering: 'Will you join the Wailers, you should!' Until this day people keep tellin' me seh that, and I say "Wha'!? Get out of here!" (laughs). But, yeah, down there recording again, and doing a couple of live shows. Not that much. But the (song) festival came along by '83, and I decided that it gonna have to be a change somewhere out there, and I said, well, this is a chance to get some major publicity in Jamaica. These songs I already wrote, never had nothing to do with the festival. I already wrote them outside of that. It was just songs that I had written, and was recording an album at the time. Q: Still, that song, 'Jamaica, I'll Never Leave You Again', has a very clear festival-flavour to it, there's that folk/calypso story-telling style for it, mento kind of flavour, like. That's my impression anyhow. A: It use the mento, folk melody. I want to say folk, because part of my background growing up in Jamaica is folk. Because I was a guitar player for the Sincatch Folk Singers. Q: I believe you've mentioned backing folk singers in Jamaica for some six years, or whatever it was. A: Yeah, you know, in school for many years we used to enter the festival in the folk category and we would be the number one group. You know, we won many awards, medals, and all kinda stuff. I was the guitar player, and the principal at the time, a man named Ken - Kenneth Neil, he wasn't the principal but he was one of the top teachers, he was writing a lot of these songs. So I kinda watch his craft, y'know, how he write his songs, how he puts them together, and many times he would deny that he was the writer. Because in Jamaica, in the competition, you can't have an author in that category, the folk category, right, so he couldn't say he was the writer in order to enter these songs. But it had to be a song that nobody knew, nobody had ever heard before. To my surprise later on I learned that oh, they were stealing the publishing! That's why he couldn't put the name to it. Because a lot of these songs end up being recorded by the Jamaican folk singers, university singers, different groups in Jamaica. And somebody else do the publishing, and this guy didn't get anything out of publishing, 'cos he couldn't use his name there. But I learned to write from that, I was writing from... These songs are written in Jamaica, from a Jamaican perspective, the way our country - the Jamaican experience, which was part of my experience growing up, in Kingston everybody was kinda putting down country people at the time. So I did 'Country Life', for bigging up country. And what I wrote for Jamaica itself, was 'Jamaica, I'll Never Leave You Again'. And I can see it fit very well in that idiom. It worked.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)