Q: Yes, I know what you mean. A: Because I never knew about that release. I never knew of the release of the 'Black Arkives' album, and I never knew either that I had a song on the album. So I would imagine that the other song which he might've put out on another collection, which to this day I am not aware of. But I guess it's... Q: Yes, actually the 'Brother Man' track ended up on a CD as far away as Australia, the compilation's titled 'Truth & Wizdom' on the Ascension label, and I believe this was in the mid nineties sometime. One of the selections is 'Brother Man' on there. A: 'Truth & Wizdom'? I am really, really grateful for this. You know, because you see, Peter, now that I am working with Empress Dyana, I am gonna do my publishing from Miami. I am gonna get my publishing company registered in Miami, so that all of these things - because I don't think is the only one who was granted. All of these original songs from which I am not benefitting, to which I have the rights, I'm gonna put them under my publishing arrangement so that I not only can trade but chase them wherever they are being sold or publicised, but I can also reap the benefits of getting its proper publishing credit, y'know. So yes, I'm very grateful for all of this, thanks to you. Q: Right, glad to be of help. What's the background to that song, 'Life Is A Flower'? A: Actually, that song was about the second song that I wrote. At that time - I tell you what, I think that could've been recorded even before 'Brother Man', because the social protest bug had not yet bit me. That was so innocent. I mean, after high school I sat at my veranda in the country, after I just began to play the guitar, and I wrote the very first song in my life - 'If I See Tomorrow' (sings): 'I don't know if the sun will rise, I don't know if I'll be around tomorrow...' (which is in fact the same song Perry titled 'I Don't Mind'), right. And shortly after that I wrote 'Honeycomb'. So those were songs that were just born out of a very innocent experience, lovely appreciation of the country and appreciation for life, y'know, appreciation for the total environment. I had not yet hit the city, so most of the injustices that I was not familiar with, that I later became familiar with, I was not aware of as a country boy. Yes. Q: Did you do anything else for Perry apart from those three songs we've spoken about, before you moved on to someone else? A: I've done a cover of Engelbert Humperdinck, 'Pretty Ribbons', yes. But I never heard the release of that either. Q: So this is pretty much what was done of the album you had started with Perry? A: Yeah, could've been three or four songs. Could've been three or four. Q: And then you ceased working with Perry when nothing came out of it. A: Yeah, nothing was coming out of it, that was the first thing. The side-effect that it gave me - yeah, he paid me an advance to do the album, but it was not a great deal of money. But it had thrown a direction that at least he was willing to pay something for your talent. But like I indicated to you earlier on, I felt the aura at the studio before the collapse, because it was in fact a collapse that came, yunno. The aura that I was feeling did not convince me that anything positive or anything great was gonna happen from that environment. Because I was growing up with a very strong, spiritual force and very strong spiritual convictions, and what I saw happening there did not convince me that it was a good thing to stick around too much. Because I was seeing insanity, which people want to robberise or use duppyisms and say its eccentricity, right, I did not think so at the time. I believed that if I had stuck around and with the enthusiasm, youthful enthusiasm, to want to make the big break, that if I had not let my spirituality hold me injec' then possibly I might've gone through that insanity, or some other negative route by continued involvement in what was happening. The aura alone was enough, it spoke to me and it said that I should get away and that I should get back to academia. That was when I went and taught for two years again in the country, preachin' and teaching. And then I went to Church Teacher of College in Mandeville to be formally trained as a teacher.

Sam Carty.

Q: But before this, you must've checked Dickie Wong at Tit For Tat? 'Everybody Something' was done, which came out in 1975 I believe it was? A: 'Everybody Something', yes, yes! 'Everybody Something' was a Festival Song entry, my very first Festival Song entry to the competition. Well, it was not selected for the final six in the original form in which it was written, it was not in the final six. But the members of the Fabulous Five band who backed the show, right... well, most of those that was selected in the final six were artists who were already established, y'know, the artists who already had a name. But I was not yet an established artist, I was looking a break. So my song was not in the final six. But I remember the guitarist from the Fabulous Five - Junior, he was also very excited by how I sounded. And Fabulous Five was on contract at the time with Dickie Wong, who operated a nightclub on Red Hills Road. Q: Tit For Tat. A: Yes, and Dickie Wong was the manager for Fabulous Five - I think it was two bands that he managing at the time, and Fabulous Five was one of them. So Junior kind of brought me to the stable and asked me to write some other lyrics that related to festivities in Jamaica, to write some of the lyrics that I heard they did. And 'Everybody Something' was the result. Q: I think compared to the usual lightweight Festival stuff - which it is pretty much about anyhow, a song like 'Everybody Something' stands out with its conscious theme, and the rhythm is deeper than most of the stuff in that bag. To me at least it's a standout, rootsier, more earthy. A: Right, thank you. Yes, many other people thought so, and it received quite a bit of airplay too, yunno. As a matter of fact, that was the song that actually started getting the attention for me, right, because it was my first song that was actually played on radio. And it was kinda paving the way for other things. But like I said I really had the urge to get back into academia. And then at the time Dickie Wong was all forgetting a'ready, I recorded two other songs for Dickie Wong: 'Reuben Rastaman' and 'Grow Dem Higher'. Q: Did they come out? A: I don't know, because he left Jamaica and I have not seen him or heard anything of him since then. Q: I'm not a hundred percent sure but I think I heard something that he went to Canada and settled down there. A: Yes, it might be, it might be Canada. But he left the country and I haven't seen or heard anything of him since then. I guess people move on (chuckles).

Sam Carty mixing at Dynamic.

Q: Sure. What was Dickie like? As far as I can understand he was one of the major players in the music scene back in those days. A: He's a Chinese man. But I remember at the time when I was recording for him, he had asked me to go to Lee 'Scratch' Perry, to get what he called a release. Of course I was on contract with 'Scratch' Perry, but Dickie Wong said that he was not taking any chances. So that he asked Lee'Scratch'Perry to write a note to say that I was released from any contract obligations with him, y'know. But shortly after that... yes, while I was actually doing preachin' and teaching in country was when I returned to do the two recordings for Dickie Wong. Yet he had booked the session for Retirement Crescent at Joe Gibbs' studio, and I went and did the two songs. Then sometime after that he left the island and I've not heard of him since. Q: I suppose it was sold, but did the Tit For Tat nighclub continue with new owners or what became of it? A: The nightclub? No, I don't think it did, yunno. It was the Tit For Tat club which also was his recording label - Tit For Tat. No, I don't think so. Q: That was a pretty central place for live music in Kingston at the time, wasn't it? A: Yes, it was, it was at the time. But what has happened, some of the areas in Kingston after some time because of the political violence and because of the change in the disposed social fabric, some areas that used to be good entertainment spots that used to attract a lot of people, after some time they did not attract people anymore because of the growing violence an' things like that. But the Turntable Club seems to have survived all of that work over a period of time, until only quite recently. Q: Turntable Club, that's Winston Blake and his brothers. A: Winston Blake, Merritone, yes. Right. But he's not there anymore, yunno. He's now at Liguanea at the one weh called Waterfalls, you know the Waterfalls, right? Q: No, no. A: Well, the Waterfalls is now where the Golden Judge on Western used to be, and that's where Winston Blake plays. Yes. And you know his wife, Cynthia Schloss? Q: Yes, she used to sing too. A: Right, yes. But she died some years ago. Yes, so like I was explaining sometimes the change and detoriation of some particular sections of the city. 'Cause, for example, as you know the Channel One recording studio. Q: Maxfield Avenue, Whitfield Town area. A: Right, right. It was one of the best studios, yunno, it had a lot of different sounds there, it was creating real waves all over the world. But then again the social degradation, eventually that studio had to close. Too much things was happening at that spot. So the things that bothers myself and others has been more or less the cork that could happen to you, certain things that happened weren't right. We actually seen them happen and it came to me that the politicians although they are for some reason - they cannot think straight. I don't know what it is that is overtaking them but you know it's all... I'm not trying to paint a totally negative picture of this country, because this country has tremendous potential, right. And if it's gonna break, it has to overcome all of this, right. But they do not heed the warning, they do not heed the warning of the musicians, y'know. They will pretend although they hear the voices but they keep on doing the same thing, and they keep on mis-leading and mis-governing.

Sam Carty & Lee Perry at Black Ark.

Q: Would you look back on the work you did for Perry at the Black Ark as the greatest achivements of the career, so far? I mean 'artistically speaking' regarding the Ark, not saleswise, then the Festival entry had a much greater impact obviously. A: Yes, you could say - I wouldn't say though it was the high-point, no. Because at Byron Lee, when I did my time with the Astronauts, I led them for over a year - you know of that involvement, do you? Q: Yes, we're coming to this later on. A: Yes, OK. But now what you might want to deter was the high-point with Lee'Scratch' Perry, you see, was the youthful exuberance on my part where I was experiencing this thing for the first time, and so it all feel so exciting to me having been a little country bwoy who was aspiring to get a break in music. After recognition, really and truly feeling that I had a mission and I still feel that way, and it is still happening. It will reach the actual crescendo, I have no doubt at all about that. But you'd term it as the possible 'high-point' because of the enthusiasm at the time, until the breaking ground. Yes, it was the breaking ground. Q: Compared to other studios, what was your impressions of the Ark as you look back? A: I had seen other studios which were owned by more... maybe more (inaudible) at the time, right, and I would not expect that every studio would look the same way, no. Because I had been at Harry J's studio, I had seen what the inside of it was like, right, but I had heard the sound that was coming out of the Black Ark studio before I reach there with Junior Byles. So by the time I reached there I saw that he had separated area for his engineering room, and he had his drum-house - the house for the drums - for the drum-set, and so on. And for voicing and where musicians would lay the tracks, and the voicing was... Yes, it seemed like a proper studio to me. You know, it was not as big as the others, but the sound that was coming out of that studio was so powerful, to some extent kind of absorbed many of the others. For example, it was out of Federal - Federal Records, and that is the studio that Black Ark was overshadowing, all of those. Yep. Of course he had to go to one of these people to do his mastering, he didn't have mastering equipment. But his sound, his musical creativity, was such that you couldn't have ignored him.

Junior Byles.

Q: And you took part when he mixed your stuff? A: Oh yes, oh yes. It was fun, y'know, it was work but it was more fun. Maybe that's how everything came out sounding the way it did. And a lot of smoking too, over the studio a whole lot of smoking. Q: (Laughs) A: (Laughs) And you know, Scratch at that time, when I met him first he was just experimenting with marijuana. But by the time everything kinda grew, like he was getting into more cash, he was getting bigger in the business and all of that. And Junior Byles had had a big hit with 'Curly Locks', and other songs that Scratch was releasing. Scratch was releasing albums, he was going off to England and getting big payment on albums which he didn't tell anybody about, and he had bought his very elaborate car, which at that time was very elaborate attached - Bode & Charga (?). At that time, that would be more or less like what a (inaudible) would be like now. OK, so having been a man who never had a whole lot of material and all of this, we realised that the economic circumstances were changing. So, Scratch was heavily into smokin' as well - very much. I noticed that he used to bring his meal inside the engineering room, and he used to be drinkin' Red Label wine, and smokin' spliff after spliff, that he would barely eat his food, y'know. Yes. And that pointed to me that there was something that wasn't right about that. So that when I left for a couple months, after some time I didn't show there for a couple of months, and I went back and I realised the changes in the aura - as I indicated before in this interview, right. But I realised the changes in the aura. I said, 'No, I don't think if I'm gonna be involved here it will only have to be on a temporary involvement, it cannot be on a full-time basis'. Because there is too much things that I do not want to be entitled to, or drawn into. Q: Seems like you didn't exactly feel too comfortable being around the place. A: Right. There was something with the environment that clashed with my spirituality, right. And even though I would experiment a little with smoking also, I would not smoke to that degree. Because I believe that if you would smoke too much and if you drank too much alcohol along with smokin', then it's gonna damage you, y'know, so I was precaucius. And then incidentally I went on, I went back to my academics, and I went back into physical training. And I went on to excel at that level going to college to make records in, like, one of the meters, and long-jump, triple-jump. A little bit of the high-school effect, the high-school education was still within me, so I still wanted to compete at that level as to succeed as an athlete as well as (chuckles)... to be involved in music. It was a lot I could do, I was never one to realise my potential and try to work on it, any area that I realised I possessed, y'know.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)

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