Q: But you talk to them both still, individually?

A: If I see Cedric I still talk to Cedric, I talk to everybody still.

Q: But Roy and Cedric are not talking anymore, or?

A: No, no...

Q: That's too bad.

A: Yeah. But I think Roy is a very calm person too, yunno? Roy is very calm, and a very honest guy you can talk to.

Q: And Cedric is a very "headstrong" individual?

A: Nah, it's not him. If he was strong, he would be like that. If you listen to that (new) track 'On the Run' - that's what I'm talking about. I had to do it, y'know? That's how I feel and he knows that is how I feel, too. And I get it out me system, but I'm alright now. But my life went down with that (group), that's why the album named "To Hell and Back"!

Q: Yeah, I was going to ask what you meant with that title?

A: Yes, because I went to hell with them! But now I'm coming back... out, or forward, whatever you want to say at this point. Everything is significant, y'know? Working in times like that, it was like I was in hell! So now when I get my freedom back it's like "I'm OK", and I do what I want to do now.

Q: Good. The reason why you call it "hell" is not surprising since you've obviously invested a lot of time, belief and energy of your life in that group, and when it turns out to be what it was - in the end, it must have been an enormous amount of disappointment, or disillusion, about it all?

A: Yes, it is. And with no apology - I'm ashamed! I'm ashamed of my brethren. To be honest with you, I am, yeah! I'm disappointed. But guess what? It made me a stronger musician. All of this has made me stronger. But if Cedric had a mind of his own, he would be a nice person. You know? He's a good guy! It's like Sampson and Delilah. Sampson was a strong guy but made Delilah... destroy him. And the same thing happened. We all have to know Delilah's around, yunno? But you've got to be wise and know when it's there, try not to flee, let your dread go to the waste-basket. When I say Delilah's around make sure you don't close your eyes, man! (laughs).

Q: Sounds almost like a "reggae-equivalent" to the feud in the Beatles: Yoko Ono in-between Lennon and McCartney?

A: Yeah, I know! Yoko Ono, yeah... Well, she's the Yoko Ono (Cedric's wife, Yvonne)! That's what I call her, technically. I mean, it's like a joke beca'... in the studio we call her that! I mean, I call her that - "another Yoko". It's the same thing! And the group (Congos) went down like that, too. But it's like one group went down financially okay (Beatles), and the other one went down financially where one guy have most of it. But, is another album that for me again. What I was saying, he can be a great guy, but he was weak - that part...

Q: Regarding a singles discography of most of your 70s works, one "reggae-ologist" (in lack of a better word/description, sorry Mike!) wanted me to ask you about a track you did credited as Flaming Arrow, called 'Where Can I Lay My Weary Head'. That was released on Phil Pratt's Sunshot label (and Mr Pratt, if you happen to read this: please put it out again!)? Can you remember that one?

A: Oh yeah, yeah! It was a day I did the track... it was when Burning Spear just started. I was actually teasing Burning Spear in the studio! Right? What happened, he was there doing something in Channel One, right? And he came in and I started the "Where can I lay my weary heeeaad..." (doing a priceless imitation of Rodney/Spears vocal style! I crack up totally! - P). And, everybody start to laugh and seh "Oh my God, you sound like him!!". And Rodney start to laugh (laughs)! And when Rodney leave with... what him name again, his producer? Oh, man...?

Q: Jack Ruby?

A: Yeah, Jack Ruby. And Phil Pratt say "I heard something with that sound a while ago, let me record it!". An' me say "But it was a joke!?". And I didn't hear about it again! It was all a joke - it was Spear I was teasin' - that tone! And I just wrote it all right there, for Phil Pratt (laughs)! Oh my God! I don't even remember I did something like that!! I was just teasing Rodney, and then he (Pratt) had me do it.

Q: So that track... you just made fun of him?

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah... by tonewise! And then when they heard it... I think it was Ranchie (McLean) and "Dougie" (Val Douglas) was by the studio. Them seh "lets do this track". An' I say "Na mon, is joke!". And Phil Pratt say "lets do it!". It was written right there and then. And I don't remember how I was thinking about it, it was technically a groove (laughs)! But I remember it now. Oh, that's strange... I was taking up audition at Channel One that time, that's how it came along. So, Burning Spear was doing recording there, 'Horsemouth' (Leroy Wallace) was on drums and Jack Ruby was the manager and everything. So when evening came along now that's when Phil Pratt come, and hear me teasin' Rodney and he start to laugh and said that I should do something with a sound like him. Oh, man... Is Sun Shot label, yeah?

Q: Yes. You came up with that name - "Flaming Arrow"?

A: No, no. It's Phil Pratt give me that name to it. Wow! It was weird, that was weird! OK, "Flaming Arrow" - that was like a paralel name to that thing there (to the "Burning Spear"), y'know? So that's what happened there.

Q: There's other singles, like 'Come By Yah' on Harry J's Rhythm Force label?

A: Yeah. That was my likkle experiment also, way back in...'74. All those tracks was done by... do you remember - it was "Dougie" on bass, Geoffrey Chung was in the group, Wya Lindo. Now Generation was the group. It was recorded at Harry J's studio. Yeah, that was my only pocket money I use fe those tracks. So, that's what it was.

Q: There's another song called 'Dancing Shoes' - no label for that one.

A: 'Dancing Shoes'? Yeah, that was for Mikey Dread - DATC label, yeh. That was in... '81.

Q: Then you have 'Dash It Pon Him Steady'? No label here either (actually released on Channel One's Well Charge imprint - P).

A: Yeah, Ranking Joe label, right? That was me and Ranking Joe, but it was my production.

Q: Was it for Ranking Joe's label, or?

A: No, my label.

Q: Called...?

A: It was... Simma Zaw.

Q: You have another imprint called Culture Star where both 'Babylon A Fall' and 'It's Him' came upon?

A: 'It's Him'? I don't remember that one. And the 'Babylon...', yeh - that's Scratch. It was an English issue, it was issued in England. But I didn't have too much control over those. I have to get those tracks back now.

Q: On your Simma Zaw label you had one called 'Karate Bump', and 'Kisko Pop'?

A: 'Karate Bump', correct... Oh my God, yeah. And 'Kisko Pop'... yep!

Q: Those two were instrumentals?

A: Instrumental, yeah. But they were great sellers in the dancehalls those time. I sell a couple thousand. Copies go well in the dancehall.

Q: Do you still got the mastertapes for these recordings?

A: Yah, I still have it so what I'm gonna do in a likkle while when I've got time, I'm gonna put all those tracks on one CD set, all vintage. Ca' Ranking Joe have some with Jr Byles that's never been released, I'm gonna put everything on one 'Vintage Classics'. But if I'm gonna put it on CD or on vinyl alone... it depends on how I feel. So I'm gonna put all those together on one CD. Or on one vinyl.

Q: That's nice. There's another instrumental called 'Malcolm X', on Culture Star also.

A: Yes. Wow... (silence). Where you get this information, man?? I forget all those tracks, man!

Q: (laughs) I have my sources, y'know! There's another track called 'Perfidia', on Micron?

A: OK, 'Perfidia' yeah... that's with Junior Clair? Instrumental, right?

Q: It could be... don't know.

A: Yeah, well I have two. One instrumental and one is vocal, with a kid named Junior Clair. He was the nephew of Pat Satchmo.

Q: And then you had 'Too Late' on Rhythm Force (Harry J) again?

A: OK now, 'Too Late', yeah. But I didn't know that track got released?!

Q: Talking about 'I Man Free' for Perry, what was the inspiration for that track (available on the Pressure Sounds CD 'Produced & Directed By The Upsetter' -P)?

A: OK. The reason why... I was going home one night and the police pulled me over. One of the big... the corporal, shine the light in me face and seh "Wow, I'm sorry, man...", an' say to one a the others "You know he's one of the Upsetter guys", and they let me go! You know, I said to them "Alright man, you OK!", and through they know Scratch and everything since he's one of Upsetter's he is OK an' them let him go... and I went home and start to write: "Walking at night with one bud a eye", y'know? Beca' I was technically pulled over with guns - with guns in my face. And the song come from that, that's what happened. I wrote the song the same night, and record it the other morning. Ca' I took it to Scratch an' him say "OK, let's do it". Like, it happened to me one night, tomorrow it's on record (laughs)! That's how fast it was in those days. Beca' when I told Scratch, he say "OK, good idea - let's do it!"

Q: How do you remember the 'Heart of the Congos' sessions - did you participate in most of the sessions?

A: I did nine tracks. What happened to me - everybody just think "baritone"! I don't sing baritone alone. I can sing up there like mid-range so sometimes when they hear it they - through they know me as the baritone - so then with me up in the mid-range I make it a lot lighter. So I did like two or three tracks on each riddim - I mean vocal tracks. Sometimes two, sometimes three, sometimes one - depends on what the track needed. But, my strongest point is the baritone.

Q: But did you do any more "lead-parts", apart from the line in 'Fisherman'?

A: No, I did one in 'Thief In The Vineyard', that was the CBS album now. Not the firs' one - because they had it packed already, they have it down already. It was just the vocal Scratch find was weak, and he need something to anchor it down. So when I came there and do it, it was the perfect sound Scratch was looking for. It was like "OK, this is it".