Q: So when coming to Canada, what did you work with? A: I was in computers. I was in charge of a company, it's electronics, dealing with processor business, and I was credit merger for the company, for about two years. And the music got the better of me still. I left that and started to do music on a full-time basis with Jackie Mittoo and myself, recording and performing at different hotels and things like that, y'know, different functions. Q: What sort of stuff did you play out with Jackie? The same kind of mix - pop songs with some reggae and R&B. A: Yeah, a mixture. But then we could do more what we wanted to do of our own stuff too, 'cos it was now introduced to the people and they understand it more. So we were doing a cross section of the pop stuff and some reggae stuff.

Q: How did the 'Messenger Man' album come about? It took some time to piece that album together. A: Ah yeah, 'Messenger Man' came about when I was working here, and I wanted to... I met this friend of mine who used to operate a record store in Jamaica called Aquarius - Herman Chin-Loy, and they had opened a store here and I went down to the store to meet with them, 'cos they were like music friends from back home, y'know. So when I got there they were surprised to see me - they didn't know that I was in Canada, they said they didn't hear anything from me for a long time, 'what's happening with music?', y'know. And I said no, I'm still in it, but I'm working full-time so, y'know, give me some space first an' t'ing. So, I came home and I started thinking about the whole thing and 'Messenger Man' was the song that came to mind, and I started writing the song and Jackie Mittoo helped me with the back-up. I went to Jamaica, went to Channel One and I got some musicians - Benbow, Bobby Kalphat, Lloyd Parks, couple more people, and we started to play and this was the beginning of the album 'Messenger Man', and the song 'Messenger Man', which made a great impact in the United States, in New York, so to speak. Q: And it came out as a single on the Turntable T label in '77. A: Well, the first time I put it out it was on a label called Halifax, which I had done the artwork for - I did the label myself, 'cause I'm an artist too. So I did that, and we released the song on a 12" and it made quite a good impact at the time, so it even forced my way into rekindle the whole fire of doing the music again. So I started out again and about 1979 I stopped, gave up my job and I started to do the music business full time. Q: What was the distribution like for that LP, it came out in the UK as well? A: Yeah, I am my own distributor and what I used to do was to manufacture the stuff and... Q: It came out on the Jah Muzik imprint at the time I think (reissued on Drum Street in the mid nineties)? A: Jah Muzik label, right. This was a label that I made myself, 'cos I had more than one label so this was one of my labels that I was introducing, 'cos this was a different kind of music now. So I decided to put it in a format, so this is what came about. And the album started out very well and to date it's one of my biggest selling albums, so (laughs)... 'Cos I keep getting orders for it every time. What I'm doing now is I'm working on a dub of the 'Messenger Man', to incorporate them, to put the dub of the vocal that is out now. And I work (on it), y'know.

Q: That would lead me to ask if this is the original dub-mix of the album, or if it has been tampered with, overdubbed over the past few years? A: No, originals. Original mix. All of the stuff that I put out as vintage stuff, or original stuff, because I don't go back and do things, like try to make it as it was in the seventies. All of this stuff - all of my tapes, I don't even remember them until I find them (laughs)! So, people wonder where these were before. Yeah. So I've got quite a number of stuff that's vintage stuff, to put out. Q: Who mixed the dub version of that album? A: Of the album? Well, it was done from Ruddy Thomas - from Joe Gibbs, the Channel One. We had Bunny Tom Tom, Solgie, to Jerry Brown, y'know - Summer Sound, to Half Moon (laughs). No, it was a collaboration of different studios. Q: Yeah. By the way, what happened to Summer Sound later on? A: That studio folded up in about the early nineties, and Jerry Brown is now back in Jamaica and I think he is trying to restart the Jamaicans group. You know, he is more into that now. Q: And after the 'Messenger Man' album, you created the Stine-Jac label with Jackie Mittoo, or was that later, in the eighties? A: Um, it was about that time. Stine-Jac label came about when we had some songs to put out, that we had manufactured, that we had produced, and Jackie and myself and another guy by the name of Tony Stines, and we forged a relationship, a business relationship where he wanted to get involved in the business. So in the initial stage we just released a song that was done by us, a long time before on this label which was Stine-Jac. He wasn't a part of the production of the songs but he was a part of the release of the songs. So we manufactured a few thousand and we tried to and we sold them off, and we started to do some other stuff too.

Q: Yeah, how much was actually released on that imprint, you had not only yourself and Jackie on it but also Noel Ellis - the son of Alton, with the duet 'Rocking Universally' (now reissued). I suppose you didn't reprint much of the Stine-Jac releases, you didn't return to them for further pressings, which should lead to some form of compilation for the future - I hope - of these releases, for the CD market. A: Right. Well, this is what I'm doing right now, I'm compiling these and incidentally I just had a company over in Germany who wanted to release 'Rocking Universally', y'know, and they've been noting (?) me since last year, but not just 'Rocking Universally'. But most of these get requests from companies for licensing deals, for most of these songs. Because they were like introduced to them, and they were like limited editions that I'm putting together to distribute at the moment, or if I get sensible deals. Because the licensing deals I've got... All of these things, I'm compiling them at the moment. Q: That's good news, most of those records are pretty scarce nowadays and only gets sold on the collectors market, some very hard to come by - sells for ridiculously high prices. A: It's true. I've got quite a number of stuff here right now, I have a lot of vintage material and I wanna put them out in a proper context that people can see them, and hear them, the way this is supposed to be heard, y'know. And the way it's supposed to be distributed, so people can... It's a lot of people out there that need it. We are in the process of negotiation with some companies and, y'know, still on the look out for better deals too. Q: Speaking about all your imprints such as Stine-Jac, Jah Muzik, Soul Sounds, and there was another one titled Inland. What did you release there? A: Inland, right. All of these labels was made by me because I from time to time - even the 'Messenger Man' album I did all of the artwork. Not just the artist's work, but the artwork for the jacket (chuckles). And for the labels and the whole thing, because I as I said I was experienced in doing art from when I was - I used to go to Trench Town Comprehensive High School, so this is where I developed most of these things. So I got quite a number of labels which I - from time to time - it is depending on the song, and what it means to me, and I put it on different labels. Q: So there's some sort of concept behind each of those, like making some kind of mark for a particular period in your career, is that the way you look at it? A: In my career, right. But what I'm doing right now, I'm putting most of the stuff on the Drum Street label, and most of the vintage stuff, I put them on the Soul Sound label, so people can get a feel for the vintage thing also.

Q: I've seen that 'Get Ready' and 'This Magic Moment' are reissued on the Soul Sound label at least. A: Right. Q: If there could be an estimation, how much could be still in the can of all the recordings you did with Jackie over the years? Some got to the pressing stage, but I guess a lot remains unreleased to this day. A: Oh yeah. I've got lots of unreleased stuff here right now, I don't know if you've heard of an artist called Merlyn Brooks? Q: Yea, I have. A: Yeah, Merlyn Brooks. I've got a variety of stuff of different artists here right now that isn't released, but we've just moved with new address and everything, so what we're doing now is getting things sorted out and putting together a studio, so I can be more comfortable working, and the time that I get to work, y'know? So, as soon as I've finished these, we will be having lots of this stuff out there. Because I know of some things that people would love to hear, which I knew they did, because it sells - the 'From Studio One To Drum Street'. I know they will love the stuff that is coming, what we will put out, y'know. Q: But even the early stuff with Jackie and the string orchestra, I suppose that hasn't come out yet, from when you came to Canada in the mid seventies. But you never recorded them for your own songs, I mean the orchestra? It was just Jackie's project. A: No, I didn't use the string. Me personally didn't use the string orchestra because I'm not a - I love strings to a certain extent, but I'm not really - I love my roots music, y'know. Q: But that could be pretty interesting to hear now, especially since Jackie passed away, what he was up to in his early days in Canada. I'm sure a lot of people would be fascinated of that early material, what you did together in Canada during that time. A: Right. We have some stuff here that - soon people will be hearin' some stuff, because I need to put them into a proper context and to give it the proper and the right treatment. So I need to sort out these things, and as soon as these things get sorted out, yeah, we have a lot of stuff coming. Q: How did the sessions for the Studio One album come about? You went down in '79 and Jackie insisted on checking Coxson, primarily? A: Well, in '79 I was working at Tubby's, y'know, did some stuff for my label. But I had met Coxson like the year before. Q: And he recognised you from the sixties sessions, eleven years previous to this. A: Oh yeah, we've always been in touch, y'know. Yeah, because he's the kind of person in that where you... Q: 'Jackson'. A: Yeah! So we met in New York and we decided to in mention that we should try something new because 'Messenger Man' was creating a storm in New York and in Canada, in general, here in the reggae community, and people wanted to hear some more of these rhythms. So when I went to Jamaica I started to work on an album for myself and we embark - after I finish my project, we embarked on the 'Armagideon Time' project, and incidentally the 'Armagideon Time' was the last song I did on the project, and it became the first (chuckles)... you know? So, yeah, that was it. It was like a recreation of history.

Q: Who was the session men for this project? The regular Studio One band Coxson employed at that time with Freddie (McGregor), Bagga Walker, Pablove Black, and so on? A: No, it was before this, Jackie Mittoo and Leroy (Sibbles) and them. I think this particular track was made by Bryan Atkinson, Jackie Mittoo. Bryan Atkinson was the bass player, you have Vin Gordon the trombone player... Q: You mean the 'Real Rock' riddim for that song? Yea, but the whole album... A: Yeah, the 'Real Rock', and... Q: How many were original tracks and the amount of old riddims you used, apart from 'Real Rock' for 'Armagideon Time', you picked a couple of the foundation rhythms, but several tracks was newly laid. A: 'Real Rock' was one of them, right, and most of the tracks was like that. But 'Real Rock' was an instrumental then, no one had sung on 'Real Rock', and I decided to do a number of songs. And not just on the 'Real Rock' but some of the ska riddims that had been done by Don Drummonds, we embarked on this project, y'know, and the younger people didn't know of Don Drummond too tough an' them things, and some of the older music. So we started to get these things sorted out and that's how it came about, the 'Armagideon Time' project, trying to reintroduce these things into what was there before. Q: So Coxson held this album project in the can for two or three years after this, and then came up with an album that could've been a lot stronger - so it was said at least. You had better material there. A: Oh yeah. Because, well, I think the material that he put out on 'Armagideon Time' is not that they aren't good, but we have way better material than we could - I know Studio One has got lots of material there for me, to be released. At least more than two albums. Q: You did more than twenty - twentyfive recordings while being there? A: Oh yeah. I spent like almost a year down there doing the stuff (laughs)! And I go back there from time to time too, y'know, to finish the stuff. So we got quite a number of songs at Studio One still unreleased. 'Armagideon Time' was just a tip of the iceberg.

Q: Yeah, hopefully. Have you spoken with Coxson about a follow-up to the first album? Is this something that could happen pretty soon, even if most of us know what 'soon' means with Studio One... A: Yeah, we have spoken year after year. As a matter of fact we were in the process last year of doing some stuff together, reissuing and get some of those songs... As you know Coxson got a big catalogue, so it's not everything that he can remember, so you have to remind him, y'know, he's got projects that he's doing, right now, new projects, so he's got a top of things before to really get this stuff out. But I think eventually it will be put out. Q: It hasn't always been the case, unfortunately since they seem to deal only with producers - directly, not the artists, but I truly hope you got some compensation when Heartbeat did the first CD issue of the 'Armagideon Time' album - I believe it was back in '92 they did that reissue. A: Well, I've got some compensation. But I must say not all my compensation, and I think what happened is that most of the companies who do business, they're doing it in a sense that they know the business - I think they rip off the artist a lot, especially Heartbeat and those guys, they know that they're ripping off the artists and most of the artists don't get their true (share). But since they're in control and they are the big-minded guys they can do anything they wanna do. But until the lawyers talk to them, we get our due, y'know, and what is there to be had, we'll get it. I have to be optimistic of what I'm doing. Q: What did Coxson put out from that album - 'Armagideon Time', 'Addis Ababa', 'Jah Righteous Plan' (which is supposed to be reissued by Soul Jazz later this year on a 10") - those were the singles at the time, two of them didn't even make it onto the album, unfortunately. A: Right. He released some singles you know, because singles were strong. Yeah. People wanted the singles and then he released 'Armagideon Time'. It was like a sensational, y'know, people wanted to hear that before anything else. And even today, people request if I (play out), they wanna 'yeah man, 'Armagideon Time'!', and doing specials like craze. Q: There's one recut of this one out now on Rashanco with (Papa) Michigan. A: Yeah, Michigan and myself did a version of that - as a clash, yeah. So, as a matter of fact we're supposed to be doing some more work and maybe this summer we'll get together and sort out some stuff. Q: How did you react that The Clash had done a version of your tune? A: Yeah, they did a cover of 'Armagideon Time'. I learned of it because it was a success for them, and what they did, the song 'Armagideon Time' was a hit - all around. They started out doing - they did the song and when the song was so great and start riding, I think what they did they put this song on the flipside of one of their songs. So they ride on 'Armagideon Time' with their song 'London Calling', because on the record they had more versions of 'Armagideon Time' than 'London Calling' (laughs)! So they use my song to make their song a hit. Yeah, it was what The Clash did. And now I still have problems because The Fugees came and did the same thing - they pirated my song and didn't give me no credit and still I have to be fighting for my rights. But this is what most of the people do, they... (chuckles). The younger set of people they try to - the younger musicians - they use peoples ideas and melodies and things like that and incorporate their own ideas, and they don't give you no royalties. And if you're not astute of the music business or the publishing business, then you get ripped off big time. Q: What did you feel about The Clash and their approach to the song? A: They did in their version - it was totally different from what I was singin', because I was singing that you were supposed to praise the Creator, and they say that you're supposed to kick it over, which is totally like a rebellious version of mine (chuckles)! But, in music no promotion is bad promotion, y'know. So it was a part of the promotion for the song, so... Although I wasn't pleased a hundred percent of how it was done. Q: Musically speaking, mainly, or just how they treated the lyric? A: Musically was... lyrically! Yeah, because them change some of my lyrics to their own intent, y'know. Q: Did you ever approach them about this? A: No, I've never. I've been invited by them but I have never really met with them. Q: It's like these two goes hand in hand anyhow - your song and their version, which played a big part in popularising the music outside of its grassroots audience, and it's like a big part of reggae history in that way. A: Yeah, it's a part of the history, y'know.

Q: Tell me a little about the album you did before the Studio One project, that you cut with Yabby You - why didn't it come out? He only released one or two singles off it, like 'Armagideon Man' for example. A: At the time we did the album there was lots of things that was happening, y'know, lots of releases, lots of stuff that was happening. So this was one of the things that was just put down for the time being. But as a matter of fact I was talking to Yabby last week and we're supposed to be embarking on that and some other projects too, for this year. Hopefully we can do something like this to finish off, y'know, and to release the stuff. But we started it at King Tubby's when we were working with - we started it with Scientist when Scientist was just fresh and we used to introduce him more to the music, for him to get the feel. He used to say that he used our music to 'experiment on' (laughs), to be a good engineer. So Scientist and we did these songs over the years. So, it's still there. Q: So he still got the master tapes for it? That's good, because as you know Yabby lost a lot of his tapes in a fire several years ago. A: Right, but we still has those works, y'know, we still have them. So we're looking forward to bring them out, y'know. Q: Yeah, I hope so. A: Yeah man, you will soon see them out there, in some format. But we're looking in a format to be releasing more vinyl more than CD's, because what's happening is that we've been ripped off when the CD's are out, y'know. Someone just buy a CD and they burn it and they don't want to buy another one. I think the CD technology is a rip-off. You know, the computer technology is... these guys make a computer and it's like they unleash a set of criminals on the musicians. You know, it's a rip-off! Q: That has been a big setback for the independent labels, even more so than the majors, even though all parties more or less lose in the end because of this. A: Right. That's why I emphasise my preferance for vinyl more than the CD's, y'know, 'cause the people who deal with vinyl are more authentic record lovers (laughs)! Q: Yeah, you could say that. But what role has Bobby Kalphat played in your productions, since he has appeared on and off over the past thirty years, doing some keyboards and/or melodica on top of some of your rhythms. I think he and Ansel Collins deserves more credit for pioneering this instrument, just as much as Glen Adams, Joe White, Glen Brown or Augustus Pablo did in their day.

Willie Williams. (Photo courtesy Drum Street)

A: Right. Yeah, this is what I'm saying, 'cos lots of people... I will be writing a book, I will be doing some, I haven't started it. I would like to, or not like to, I am in the process of doing a biography - the whole thing. Because I've been reading books and these books are distorted, they distort about the whole thing about the artist, about the whole concept of the music, the culture - the whole thing. You know, because these books have been - people are telling people things that they don't even know about. Because most of the people who write these books and talk about these books, they weren't even there when the music started out. Seen? They weren't at the studios, they didn't... Years after when they see people loved the music, and the impact it had on people, people started getting involved in it but at the initial stage when these things happened, most of the people weren't there because they were looking at the musicians as wasters, y'know. Like, you just sit down every day, you don't do nothing (chuckles). But they don't know behind the scenes what happened, what the preperation was for doing a song, how the whole thing comes about, y'know, it's a lot of work. Q: Right, how much hard work there is is beyond my imagination sometimes, to get it as close to perfection as you possibly can, whatever the definition of 'perfection' is. A: Right, so lots of people don't know this. So they just take it for a simple thing. So, these are the people who jump up and write or offer their services as people who know but have no ability of the artist or reggae music, but they don't know anything. So I intend to document these things with the aid of the Creator, y'know, that I can put these things in the right format, right context, so as to give some of the people the right credit they are supposed to get, who didn't get the credit like you say, Ansel Collins, Bobby Kalphat, people like these people, who have been there for years and haven't got any justice out of this.

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Article: Peter I (Please do not reproduce without permission)

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